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May 19, 2011, 12:12 am

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Submission Respect

By:

Ok, there is no real place to put this but I think it needs to be said and put up here for everyone to view. This is not for gaming terms, it is not how to view rules or your gamers better. But it is an idea on how to respect your fellow Strolenites.

Now I have a complaint. This isn’t a big complaint but it isn’t a small complaint either. This is also not just a complaint for my sake but I have been seeing this more and more.

Now, I am noticing that there is a huge increase in viewable traffic to the submission pages. This is a great thing. More views hopefully means more people putting up content. However I have a problem with this.

On a number of these submissions where the views are going beyond 50, even up to a 100+. It seems everyone is reading them and viewing them. But not one person is commenting on them. Not one person is voting on them. I can understand that there is a huge increase in submissions being brought over from v1.0 of Strolens and the forums. There is a lot of content that will take a while to transfer it all over.

But the posts that are up with more than 30 views with no comment should not be. Like the Metallica song, The Thing that Should Not Be. This is one of them. If you view a submission and actually read it. I understand that we don’t always get to read them or have an interest to read them once we click on them. But if you actually read it, say something about it. The following is just a basic start to a comment. Each sub requires different handling and different remarks so the few points below are simply that, just points to look at but expand on.

  • How about, Thank you for your work that you put up here for everyone to see.
  • How about, Hey this was a great idea I may be able to use it in one of my games, or maybe I can't use it but it is still a good idea.
  • How about, I didn't really care for this sub, however maybe clarify this point or that point to make it more understandable for future readers.
  • How about, anything other than writing nothing at all.
  • Constructive criticism instead of destructive criticism.

It makes people who really put ideas up question whether or not they should continue to put things up or not. I for one have slowed my posting down a bit to see what happens. Because of this. Not only have a few of my submissions fallen to this viewable curse, I have seen a few others as well which I am the only comment, or Moonhunter has the only comment about it. I see one of my ideas or another idea go for 50 or more views without a single vote or comment I question it.

I try to make it a point to view at least 3 uncommented submissions and 3 unvoted submissions on a daily basis. I have not hit that everyday, but when I do post I go to those two sections first. Get those clouded in dust and history up to see the light again.

Please respect all of the people here who have put forth time and effort into submitting things for everyone to see and enjoy. I for one have seen a lot of uncommented or unvoted ideas that have been that way for weeks if not months (not months since the new site but since they were originally posted) that were great ideas and needed a little work but were forgotten about because out of 30 - 75 views not one person said, Hey this is cool, but could you explain this a little bit more?

No comment like that and new submitters will go elsewhere as they may feel that their submissions are not getting the respect that they deserve. I for one would tell you, if my first post would not have had anyone comment on it to tell me hey this needs a little work and went ignored, I would have left. Now look, I am trying my best to dethrone Moonhunter with full content. (which won’t happen unless he looses access to every computer for a year)

Point being, respect the posters who put up the content. If you read a submission take the 1 minute it would take to place a comment and say, thanks or needs work. If it needs work tell them what it is lacking otherwise it won’t get fixed.

So click on the unvoted and raise them from the darkness.
So click on the uncommented and bring them to the light and shed the unwanted feeling from their shrouds.

Post and comment, that's all I can say.

Edit:
And this is for the new people submitting new stuff. It falls under the submission respect thought but more for the respect for others who read your submissions and for the others who put work up for all to see.

When you put a submission up, and Moonhunter has plenty of articles to back this, please do your best to make it a complete submission. Incomplete submissions take up time to read and have us complain about what it should have been.

Make sure everything is thought out first. Detail it before you put it to paper. Come at it from more than one angle. Think of back story, back story and history is a perfect way to flesh out an idea and for the rest of the Strolenites here to appreciate it more. We are a fickle group but we support anyone willing to work at being fickle just like us.

So please, respect the reader, and the writer both. Comment when you read it, and make the submission as complete as possible. If it is less than three paragraphs it is probably to short. At least to me it is.

Additional Information
I am adding this here as an after thought. I began to look at some of my submissions that were commented or voted on and some others that I commented or voted on. Some of this I saw, some I did and some I didn’t do.

One thing that goes along with the respecting others and their work, submissions, and comments. If you create a submission and someone votes on it, comments on it,then it should be a natural given that you thank them. A simple reply to their comment, “Hey thanks for your comments, vote, or interest.” It goes a long way I think for continued support of your work.

Also if someone gives a comment that recommends a change and you say, “I will work on changing, fixing, detailing more of that, or whatever.”, than please do so. I have done this myself and dropped the ball only to come back months later to fix something I said I would. If you say you will fix it, be courteous enough to do so.

Additional Edit: (2011)

This was originally written right after Strolen's came from the forums to what you see here today so some of the problems we have now did not happen then. I understand and realize that me referring to the golden days of Strolen Forums may be confusing to some, especially those were were not here to witness it. Strolen's Citadel was originally, at least when I stumbled across it, a forum group. Post upon post, and endless thread upon thread was filled with what you now see today. In some manner it was more time consuming to read, however every post concerning a certain game world was all in one thread. It was streamlined and it worked. We were a community back then all striving to help each other and push the site and it's content as far as it could go. Most of the issues we had were simply submissions not getting read or even commented on. In the olden days we had a gentler tone, one that I would like see returned to the site. It was definitely a happier place then. No one voting down a submission because they didn't like the author or keeping it form a higher vote so it wouldn't receive it's proper due. We didn't even have a voting system back then, it was give comments until the sub could become its maximum potential. Now there is a bigger issue. Submissions that are being derailed and slandered by the remarks and poor taste of those commenting.

Submission Respect goes a long way into thanking someone for their hard work. For allowing us to see a small glimpse into the heart and soul of the creator. To look at their creativity and willingly allow us to take it apart and scrutinize it to our hearts content. That is the fear of everyone, especially those first time authors who delicately place a sub up for review thinking they have just written the next Golden sub only to have it ignored or torn apart like a carcass being attacked by vultures. Respect goes a long way. Remember, and I think some people forget this, English is not every ones first language here at this site. Sometimes it isn't even their second language. To ridicule someone for their horrible grammar in public is similar to taking your child outside and screaming at them in front of the neighborhood kids about wetting their bed when they are four years old. It happens, its an accident, they are still learning.

When reading a submission remember, yes it is supposed to be a complete sub polished and finished to the most minute detail. Spelling and grammar should be in great order. However, as stated that English is not a first language for everyone here, most of the authors are not English majors or teacher either. Allow people to make mistakes, they learn from them after all. Do not slander them and boldly put, "This is horrible your spelling and grammar or atrocious. This word is wrong, the meaning of this word is really this... you said you fixed said issue but I still see more. If this was fixed and it still this bad I would hate to read it before the edit." Instead of all of that, why not vote on it comment saying hey saw a few issues and sent you a PM about them. Because something you saw wrong that person may not see it. They may have intentionally erred on the side of grammar for the flow of the sub. Who knows, ask before you derail the sub next time.

Back in the original Strolen's, it was not about grammar and spelling, it was about the idea of something and whether or not it was a good one that could be used in your own game or not. That's what Strolen's was originally. A collaborative forum site where people came put their ideas up and willing allowed the other Strolenites to help fix what was wrong, not fear of being ridiculed for a spell checker not finding a word that was spelled correctly just the wrong one intended. Not once did the old school Citadel have issues with people slamming others on these issues. It was politely said or done in a PM and was fixed.

It is not about a 5/5 vote or a HoH, it is a collaboration of like minded artists creating their own worlds for others to see and help create and live through. So remember where this site originated from and help it go back to its roots. Respect your fellow authors and respect the original meaning of what it means to be a True Strolentie.

And last but not least, this was originally a forum based on information revolving around material for RPG's, last I checked it still was.



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Comments ( 63 )
Commenters gain extra XP from Author votes.

Voted manfred
December 12, 2005, 12:16
0xp
Thank you that you care. We all should certainly comment more... it is the flow of our lives that allows us to drift towards or to be carried away from the Citadel. It is at times like these when the it becomes clear how strong the community is - a few people turn away for a while, and there is suddenly silence in what seemed to be a crowded marketplace.

Allow me to take at least your post from the darkness, to show it is not unwanted.
Mourngrymn
December 12, 2005, 12:42
0xp
Thank you manfred...
Mourngrymn
December 12, 2005, 12:42
0xp
Updated: edited for spelling
Mourngrymn
February 6, 2006, 9:11
0xp
Just bumping this so the newer viewers of Strolen's can get an idea on the way it should be.
Voted Ancient Gamer
February 6, 2006, 11:23
0xp
How about this: We all post our own stuff. We all honk our own horn and vote for no one else but wait for others to vote for us... Nice plan. Yes.

Actually I have quit reviewing and Hall of Honouring people who do not review or Hall of Honour others. If they can't be bothered with helping out the community, I certainly cannot be bothered with helping them.

Other than that I must admit that I sometimes shy away from voting on pure 5.0 submissions when I think they are not 5.0. It kinda feels like I am the hair in the soup, the fly in the pie, the kill joy if I did that. I actually had a long, honest review ready today, but ditched it, because I like the fella and did not want to bring him down.

Confessional over, now sports.
Mourngrymn
February 6, 2006, 12:06
0xp
I think you need to work on your to honest nature AG! If you are afraid to hurt someones feelings how will you be able to tell anyone how you feel about, well anything?

But I agree, I have noticed a trend of voting and HoHing certain people because they are active. I just wanted everyone to be aware that just because you may not submit material up doesn;t mean you can't contribute. Help us out so you can continue to enjoy the site.
Ancient Gamer
February 6, 2006, 12:12
0xp
Oh I am honest. If I can't bring myself to ruin the day of someone I just evade the encounter. :p
Mourngrymn
February 6, 2006, 12:18
0xp
I have said in the past, I would rather you tell me my submission was a 1 then read it, not like it, then not tell me to fix it.

I like comments regardless if they are good or bad. If it isn't any good and I don't know about it I can't fix it. Tell me it stinks... that will make me fix it much faster.
PoisonAlchemist
October 22, 2014, 12:41
0xp
I try to scroll past the current sub's rating without looking at it because I don't want to be influenced by what other people think of the sub before I read it. I would rather develop my own opinion. Like you, I would feel bad.
Voted Cheka Man
February 6, 2006, 12:38
0xp
I try and comment and vote but I don't allways have the time.
Ancient Gamer
February 6, 2006, 14:13
0xp
Cheka... You are hardly lax in your voting.
Mourngrymn
February 6, 2006, 14:25
0xp
Agreed!
Dream
February 6, 2006, 19:52
0xp
I always had a problem commenting if I didn't have anything new to add. Some of the best ideas here are analyzed brilliantly by the "regulars". Besides, I wouldn't say much against any idea. All of them are useful to someone, somewhere.

"Even the fool may be counted among the wise... until he opens his mouth and removes all doubt."
Voted Michael Jotne Slayer
February 7, 2006, 8:07
0xp
I must say that this article seems to function as a nice basis for debate, which is a good sign. I'm glad you wrote it Mourngrymn, my view of this matter seems to mirror yours. In addition I must say that if my first post here at the citadel hadn't recived any comment at all I would have moved on as well.

This is very important indeed, if someone spends hours on a post, what could be more demoralizing than a hundred views and not one comment?
Reading this is like a stamina boost, makes me want to be a better reviewer.
Let's hope it makes a difference.

And lastly a few "words of the wize ages"- Thou shalt not comment on a man's work before thou hast walked a mile in his shoes... That way you are a a mile away and still running when he discovers the rampage you have wrought on his post. And even better You have shoes and he doesn't. And thus he will not catch you unless he wants to have soar feet. So on and so forth:)

M-
Mourngrymn
February 7, 2006, 9:58
0xp
Mike made a very good point.

Thou shalt not comment on a man's work before thou hast walked a mile in his shoes

I take this to mean one thing. Do not look at a post as being bad, or crap, or junk or a waste of time. . . unless you have submitted something yourself. I for one love comments both good and bad, but seeing someone who has never posted before and just comments and tells someone their submission is crap is off to me.

If someone puts forth the time to submit and comment then they know the fear of rejection. But someone who never submits anything and comments and bashes someone for their lack luster skill.

I don't know i guess I am a little harsh today because I'm getting bad news after bad news.
CaptainPenguin
February 7, 2006, 20:29
0xp
Hey, man, I'm innocent. Have you seen how much mediocre crap I've turned out? And anyway, none of my stuff is that good, you guys are just crazy.
Mourngrymn
February 8, 2006, 8:26
0xp
HAHAHAHA so speaketh the Penguin!?!?!
Mourngrymn
February 28, 2006, 15:45
0xp
Updated with some new content and so the newer people visiting strolens may see this to get an understanding of what we look for in an active member. Now granted I am no admin by any means, but it is about respecting everyone here and their work.

Kudos.
Voted Murometz
February 28, 2006, 15:47
0xp
I've made 127 comments in 2 weeks. decent pace I think. Not one (okay, one) was negative. Great article and good follow up points!
Mourngrymn
February 28, 2006, 15:55
0xp
Doesn't matter is the comments are negative as long as they are constructive.

That is the largest problem we have is a majority of people are afraid to comment badly and instead will refuse to comment or say something they don't feel for fear of it upsetting someone. Don't. We are all capable of understanding. or we should be able to.
Murometz
March 15, 2006, 16:31
0xp
if you want to see a from the heart comment of mine...see Boots of The Fowl
Ancient Gamer
January 16, 2007, 10:01
0xp
Hehe! Muro, everybody's friend :D

That is the Muro we know and love ;)
Mourngrymn
June 15, 2006, 7:50
0xp
Updated with an Additional Information section. Comments welcome.
Voted valadaar
January 4, 2007, 10:48
0xp
I think this one needs a little bump again. So, my last vote for the day, and a HOH go to this post :)
Mourngrymn
January 4, 2007, 10:58
0xp
Well thank you valadaar... your comments and votes are welcome.
the Wanderer
January 5, 2007, 6:53
0xp
I have to admit, I'm guilty too.
Sometimes, after reading a sub, I'm just not sure what to say about it. And much like AG, I have a bit of an issue when it comes to voting. I hate to bring someone down when the general populace sees the sub as a 5 and I only see a 3...

I am actively trying to comment more, with at least a "good idea" or "could use a bit of polishing" (two comments I see often and have received myself).

Although I am not one to complain when someone votes for a sub, I've noticed quite a few votes that leave a blank after them. Now I would NEVER turn away a vote, but I do find myself wondering what I did right / wrong to warrant it. It's a matter I'd like to see addressed if possible.
If you vote, high or low, I think at least a small something (just a few words really) should be given. "I like the idea", "the part about the _____ is great", "Polish this a bit more" or "Please elaborate on ____" all take a few seconds to type and would be appreciated by everyone.

Now that my rant is through, thank you Mourngrymn, I needed to vent...
kamina
January 5, 2007, 8:02
0xp
AG, You don't need to stop being honest... maybe just send a PM with ideas on how to improve. Personaly, I don't care about the VOTE I am looking for advice.

As for not commenting or HoHing a sub of someone that doesn't give the same consideration to others: I understand your postions, but remember that a newbie (like me) doesn't have a HoH to give and many new people might be too intimidated to vote or comment (especialy if they haven't chated with anyone).

Wulf was all over my 1st Sub. But, he did it all in PM and waited to vote/comment publicly until I had made a lot of much needed corrections. (A favor which I appreciated and have tried to pass on.)

We have to remember that we are dealing with people from different cultures and age ranges. I think we need to temper our criticism with clear advice so new comers will feel encouraged rather than intimidated (difficult sometimes). I received this kind of help; but, I was involved in chat long before my first sub.
Mourngrymn
January 5, 2007, 9:32
0xp
That is perfectly logical reasoning. And a comment in a PM is still a comment. All I was originally saying in this sub was that give the respect to everyone that you expect yourself. If you want people to comment on your subs then comment in return. There really isn;t a whole lot that can be said about it. If people prefer to comment via PM, which some members have done with me, which is fine.
PoisonAlchemist
October 22, 2014, 12:46
0xp
I have always been unclear what a HOH is, and how or why I should use it. I think it may vaguely be like the Gold on reddit, but I have no idea. Is there a sub about this somewhere?
MysticMoon
October 22, 2014, 12:58
0xp
Once you achieve level 4, you gain Hall of Honor votes. It's a way of marking subs as really standing out to you (though not necessarily the best of the best, which is what Gold votes are for). Each time someone votes HoH on a sub, it gets promoted to the front page for a period of time. You can browse all of them at http://strolen.com/browsing/Honour .
valadaar
January 5, 2007, 9:30
0xp
I will admit that sometimes when a post is already significantly commented with many comments that I tend to agree with, I may neglect to comment but will add my vote to the list. I'll try to do less of that :)

As a side note, I've noticed that altough the ability to add/remove XP on a scroll entry is present, it does not appear to be commonly done.
Voted dark_dragon
January 15, 2007, 18:25
0xp
You know, I think that this submission really shows why this is such a nice place to be.

Mourngrym and all the commenters here show how strong the community spirit is in the citadel, and although i haven't made a single sub yet, it is this kind of post and the replies that drew me here in the first place and hopefully will keep me here.

Most members seems to not only respect the other posters, but also to care that all learns and benefit from posting.

And as you have just shown, when some could be reminded, the members are always ready to do this respectfully and tactfully.

So, thankyou all for really making this a great discussion which really, in the end improves the quality of the citadel and its members even more!
Mourngrymn
January 16, 2007, 7:20
0xp
If this helped even one person who is new to the site then I feel it was not done in vain and am content. Thanks.
Voted Strolen
January 15, 2007, 18:38
0xp
Damn, the guilt is just dripping off of me right now.

Many times I speed read through stuff just to get the general idea and don't really give much thought to commenting sometimes. Crap, I must turn my wicked ways!
MoonHunter
January 15, 2007, 22:53
0xp
That is okay. We forgive you. The dieties... well.

Now your penance will be to code Settings and Web Links to proper satisfaction.
Michael Jotne Slayer
November 5, 2007, 11:47
0xp
A shameless bump to this helpful piece. I really do believe that articles like these make a difference. Sometimes I would much rather have a long thoughtfull comment, focused on improving my submission and giving good advice instead of a vote and two words. But two words are better than none I suppose. But mind you, I'm not honking my own horn here. I could greatly improve as a commenter, but I strive to become better.

This is still a great post.
manfred
November 5, 2007, 13:38
0xp
Just an aside, one thing I have noticed here now: if a submission has views, but no votes or comments, it doesn't have to mean anything bad - there are various spiders and crawlers out there, that keep searching automatically, and those are counted among the views (I think). There is also the Barbarian Horde factor, a group that may be quite silent for its (undetermined) size. Lastly, there are the various members, who may just breeze through a post and skip it due to a lack of time, or read it thoroughly, and ponder for minutes (or hours?) before commenting.


To put it shortly: if you post a submission, and it has views, but no comments, don't panic right away. :)

They will come.
PoisonAlchemist
October 22, 2014, 12:49
0xp
As long as your sub is not too old.

It's not just crawlers that can up the view count - I know that when I publish all my subs have 10+ views already. I Edit them, submit them to my private workspace often, leave, come back, look at them, re-read them, refresh the page to make sure the chat is still working... etc. so by the time I publish it has a lot of hits from *me*.
valadaar
January 23, 2008, 12:41
0xp
As an annual tradition,

BUMP

Kuseru Satsujin
March 11, 2008, 15:39
2xp
Actually, I'd like to address this section:

Mourngrymn wrote:
1) How about, Thank you for the work that was put into to for everyone to see?
2) How about, Hey great idea maybe Ill use it, or won't.
3) How about, Didn't like the idea, try again.
4) How about, anything other than nothing?

On the first point, I have to disagree completely. Yes, such comments, along with comments like "this is a great idea" are going to appear. However, I disagree that these types of comments should be recommend as they don't really help the writer to improve the idea or generally give any usable feedback.

On the second and third points, the comments may or may not provide usable feedback to the writer, and basically follow the first point in usability.

The fourth point is where I recommend comments. Basically I break the idea down into several types of comments:
1) A suggestion or suggestions for added material to help improve the submission.
2) Constructive criticism, notes, suggestions, and points which help the writer improve the quality of the submission. I do have to state that while such criticism may not be positive (the reviewer may have found some problems which they feel rates correction for instance), it should be written in such a way to eliminate or minimize antagonism toward the writer or their material.
3) Clarification points. Sometimes an element of the submission may not fully explain what the writer is trying to convey or the reviewer feels that a key point or key points are missing from the submission. Like constructive criticism, these comments should be written from a helpful, rather than harmful view point.
4) Ancillary information. While similar to suggestions for added material, this type of comment is directed more toward information linking the submission with other related submissions or submissions which may have an impact on the subject.

Well, I hope my comment helps improve the comment system as a whole, now if I could just work on my commenting skills more.
Strolen
April 20, 2008, 8:56
0xp
It must be fate that brought me here. Just today I repledged my lazy bones to 5 comments/votes a day. This is my 4th one that I just used the random submission on the right link list to choose what I would read.

You are 100% right and I agree with you. While the submissions are what drive the site, it is the comments and interaction that I think drive the subs. Would many people really put stuff up here if there wasn't feedback?
Voted punkcasher
March 12, 2009, 17:14
0xp
Cool.

:)
Voted Dossta
November 1, 2010, 15:52
2xp

Found myself nodding my head many times while reading the sub, and many more while reading the comments.  Here are my 2c:

1. Sometimes when I read a submission to the end, I'll find that I really have nothing to say about it.  This is typical of subs that are written well and have a solid idea that is fleshed out to some extent but, for whatever reason, didn't really inspire me.  I don't hate these subs, but I don't really like them either.  This is not an excuse -- I should probably give the author at least a 3 vote in these cases -- but I hate to bring a sub in the 4/5 range down a few pegs because I feel lukewarm about it.

2. Thanking someone for posting on Strolen's is a nice gesture, but doesn't really provide any constructive feedback.  If you liked the sub, at least point out what you liked about it.  Same for what you disliked or would change.

At the end, this is an inspiring submission that carries a much-needed reminder.  I'll have to start making an effort to post on the uncommented/unvoted subs more often.

Mourngrymn
November 6, 2010, 9:55
0xp

Wow... its nice to know some of these old subs of mine get looked at still.

Michael Jotne Slayer
November 6, 2010, 10:49
0xp
More often than you might think Mourn;)
Voted Ramhir
November 7, 2010, 8:12
1xp

Wow! I find myself agreeing with nearly everything said in the sub and the comments.

The bland, 'Thanks for posting' comments are just that, bland. Better than nothing, but not much better.

Likewise the 'Yawn, how very cliche' comments border very closely on the 'your writing is crap!' comments and tear down the author of the sub without giving him any constructive feedback. (and yes, I've seen a few of those in the earlier subs)

Like many of you have said, I *LIKE* constructive comments, both the 'you're doing much better!' or the 'you really made me ponder' (everyone likes egoboo, after all) and the ones that focus on what I've done wrong and how to make it better (after all, even I am not perfect, yet, but don't tell anyone that, OK?). No comments at all would mean, for me, no reason to stay active. 

Strolen, any chance of a bit of code that trolls for new comments and flags them for the author of that sub? I know that I still look back to see if anyone has made another comment on one of my subs. Right now, with only 7 subs out there, I can do it but I expect to still be here years from now and 70, or 170 subs would become overwhelming.

Mourngrymn, I agree that even ones that don't post have useful ideas to contribute. But slamming a post without having put ones up yourself is just wrong! It's the act of an insecure coward, hiding behind his anonymity to hurt without being called on it. I don't think anyone should do it, but if you must, at least have the courage to put something up yourself.

Mike, I *loved* your 'words to the wize', laughed myself silly!

Kamina, I hadn't thought of using the PM to make a private comment to a person who's sub needs a lot of help but you don't want to humiliate him publicly. I should have, too. Praise in public, censure in private is a cardinal rule for Creative Writing teachers (actually all teachers and all bosses of all sorts, although it is often ignored). Thanks a lot.

Anyway, thank you, Mourngrymn, for a very thought-provoking article, and all the commenters who turned it into a debate. It's helped me a lot.

Voted slartibartfast
November 8, 2010, 6:16
2xp

Know what would be useful on this matter (particularly to myself)?  Some sort of general guide for rating submissions.   Anyone know if such an item exists here?  I think that is a major hurdle to people stepping forward to vote on posts.

I agree with the points made on the article; however, I often find myself clueless as to what the criteria is for rating submissions.  I've generally been going with the metrics of primarily "is it original", followed by "is it well-written",  "is it explained well", and "is it useful to a campaign?"  In other words, if I were to use this item, monster, dungeon, background, or mechanic in my own campaign, would my players perk up their ears, or would they roll their eyes? 

In the past, I've gleaned a couple useful things which have actually made it into my campaign; as a result, I try "give back" by occasionally visiting this site and provide the occasional submission or vote.  I'm extremely time-poor, so the frequency with which I can do this is pretty sparse.

When I do, however , it seems that I am a bit off-base in terms of my criteria; I notice that my own attempts at rating and critiquing often fall significantly above or below that of the "regulars".   Hence, I am often a bit gun-shy about commenting.  If this falls true for me, then I'd guess there are others in the same boat who might feel similarly.

So how about some guidelines for voting/commenting?  Not just the tired stuff about respectfulness and politeness.  Those are paramount, yes.  But I'm talking about how to properly critique a submission.

  • Should poor grammar and readability be ignored/forgiven if the idea is original?
  • Does originality trump playability/usability?  In other words, it may be something new, but if it is next to impossible to work into a campaign world, does it still warrant kudos?
  • So, what, here at Strolen, defines "original"? 
  • Quite often, ideas that have been done before in game supplements, movies or books find their way onto here as "original".  In fact, one can even make the argument that nothing is ever truly original; the seed or components for every "original" idea can always be traced back to another concept or idea.  So,  how should the "been there, done that" reaction affect voting?
  • How important is the explanation?  Does the amount an idea is "fleshed out" have impact on responses/votings?  How much?

I can keep going with the questions, but I think you get the idea of what I'm looking for.  I'd love to hear on this from some of the "regulars", or at least get pointed to an existing article or guideline for this.  It'd be a great help for me, and probably others as well.  Thx.

Michael Jotne Slayer
November 8, 2010, 9:49
2xp
This is a debate that has been running in the uncdercurrents of the citadel for years. In my opinion it is of paramount importance that you vote what you think! I have myself, as you do now, debated for a general guide for voting on submissions. But now, I would say that such a thing can not be. Who would make the list? Would we vote? It has been attempted by users to define, lets say a "benchmark for a 3.0 post". But! What is a clearly defined 3.0 submission for some users is something else for another.

I understand and relate to the issues you bring forth in your splendid comment. I sometimes feel like the bad apple myself. Everebody is praising a submission, and I just dont feel that it is a 5.0, what do I do? I know others feel this way too. The answer is that you do what you feel is right, but it is important to explain what you would improve, what you do not like etc. In my opinion, a guide would make users feel even more forced to vote a certain way, and it would never be balanced as we all have different opinions and views(thank god).

But once again, I see your points as valid. It can indeed be frustrating. I have a submission myself that I am kinda ashamed of, because, I feel that it is a 4.0(at best), but somehow, it was voted much higher, I also have subs that are voted(somewhat) low, when I think they deserve better. This is simply the way of things. We should not try to control the outcome of voting and commenting, in my opinion that would unbalance the votes even more. And avoid stumbling into pit falls like: Voting a submission lower than you normally would because you feel the stats are wrong.

All in all, you have hit upon some key points that have been debated before, and should be debated again.

Here are a few links for further research;

* http://strolen.com/guild/index.php/topic,2923.0.html

wildcorns post "Presenting ideas in the Citadell" spawned a nice debate with many replies worth reading. Some light is shed upon the old: "Colour vs flavour" debate that is related to your points.

* http://strolen.com/viewing/Whats_in_a_Vote

This is a link to "Whats in a vote", a sub by scrasamax providing his views upon this subject, created about a year after this. It also features some nice points, and the idea expanding debate points in the comment section is absolutely worth a read. Look out for AGs comments, they illuminate a darker side of voting and commenting worth noticing.

Good luck.
slartibartfast
November 9, 2010, 7:35
0xp
Thanks so much! I found both your recommendations and the links posted both useful and informative. Much obliged!
Mourngrymn
November 9, 2010, 22:48
0xp
All good points you have brought up slart and as Mike said it is an age old debate to that answer as well. There are a few submissions up regarding this and I will toot my own horn so to speak to help answer this question for you. I submitted an article so to speak years ago about what I used my basis off of and it started many ideas from it. Ill link it here for your ease of searching.

Voting Practices

Hope this helps.
Michael Jotne Slayer
April 13, 2011, 20:51
0xp
"It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue."

A shame really, please reconsider? :)
Mourngrymn
April 10, 2011, 21:48
1xp
Update: Seeing as to the recent events that have caused me to remove many of my subs from the site to a more hidden and friendlier environment for me to work on them, I have come across an idea to help fulfill this original article. I have decided to update this article and put it back up for all to see and hope against hope that things turn around to where they used to be.
Voted Black Jack Rackham
April 11, 2011, 10:03
0xp

I am quite guilty of the initial complaint (viewing the stuff all of you have written without posting.  For a while there I jumped in but rl prevented it from being a permanent thing.  So, since time permits a bit more now, I am back to try and live up to these sage words.

Mark

(and I remembered to vote this time)

Voted MysticMoon
April 11, 2011, 15:09
1xp

I heartily agree. The collaborative nature of Strolen's is one of the primary reasons I am here. I feel that receiving helpful comments has helped to make me a better writer overall. On the flip side, it can be awfully demoralizing to spend several days toiling over a sub only to watch it fade off of the front page with nary a word.

Before I wrote my first sub I spent a fair amount of time reading sub after sub. I learned a lot from both the subs and the comments, such as things to avoid and tips on how to do better. I think the comments, being public, help more than just the author. In addition, I felt comfortable posting my own work because the comments were so constructive rather than confrontational. I received some good feedback on that first sub and that gave me the confidence to keep going.

Ancient Gamer
April 12, 2011, 1:24
0xp
"On the flip side, it can be awfully demoralizing to spend several days toiling over a sub only to watch it fade off of the front page with nary a word."

Amen.

Whenever I think about writing a sub, I think about what you just said and... then I don't write that sub. ;)

Major weakness of the Citadel #1
Michael Jotne Slayer
April 12, 2011, 10:57
0xp
Or several weeks or months:D
Voted axlerowes
April 11, 2011, 16:12
0xp
I just finished reading Checka Man's 30 on the same topic, and again I think this is useful item. Almost a mission statement.
Voted Old Dreamer
April 11, 2011, 18:51
0xp

Good grief! Read this whole stream and almost forgot to comment and vote!

Voted Nuchiha101
May 18, 2011, 23:56
1xp

This is a problem, but we can't truly pursue it.

 

Some people are simply literally "Comment-less", and as of such don't know what to post. This can be caused by a amazing article, a horrible article, or a article that is just... Normal, and doesn't seem special. Also, this site is based in America, and there are no laws making it obligatory to comment.

 

But it is a problem, I think there should be some sort of reward for commenting. And as more people comment the reward decreases, and as less people comment the reward increases.

Strolen
May 19, 2011, 0:12
0xp
Update: Updated to Citadel Help category. (Hope you don't mind Mourn!)
Voted Nafar
May 28, 2011, 11:01
0xp

I think everyone in the citadel needs to read this at least once.

Voted chilled
June 11, 2012, 7:06
0xp
This should be a front page sticky article.

But, we do not have that, so a HoH it is.

4.5 out of 5
Voted PoisonAlchemist
October 22, 2014, 12:54
Only voted

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       By: ephemeralstability

The extra-planar citadel of Ansern is named after its mage-founder. Ansern discovered the means to traverse the planar gulfs and created the citadel as a haven for his disciples in the art of planar-exploration. The disciples of Ansern continue his work and explore the countless worlds opened up to them by the work of the mage. They are cataloguing everything they discover in preparation for the greatest volume ever written: the Mondopedia, a book detailing many of the worlds. But the countlessness of the planes means that their book will never be finished.

Ideas  ( Locations ) | May 26, 2003 | View | UpVote 0xp


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