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Offline Strolen

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What the Citadel has Become
« on: September 05, 2015, 11:00:27 AM »
Continued discussion from: http://strolen.com/viewing/The_First_of_Cities

For context so you don't have to jump around reading what started it:

morningstar
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Not nearly as enthused as other folks, sorry to say. This isn't a usable city: it's the foreword to the writeup of one. Two-thirds of it is a history lesson, and most players don't give a d**n about which long-vanished ancient realms fought over a city or that many centuries ago it used to have wooden walls before finances improved enough for stonework.

What do we know about the city today? It's a port, and it's a capital, and it's got neighborhoods, and the neighborhoods are segregated by class/money, and there's a City Watch, and the gates can be closed to secure the city, and there's a separate watch for the wharfside, and the city's a mercantile center, and the ruler has his own guard force. That pretty much describes 95% of every capital city port in RPGdom, and we can make these presumptions in moments. What sets this city apart?

The "Temple Palace" has an evocative sound, but unfortunately the name is all we know about that. Is this a theocracy, or is there a religious leader separate from the Emperor?

And the language is just too florid in spots. "The city though can be deduced to be divided into nine parts" ... that's an awfully convoluted way to say that there are nine districts/neighborhoods.


strolen
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I think one of the main points to understand is that this submission was probably not written for you. Perhaps it is a world being fleshed out still and the backstory is important to other interconnected ideas that never made it. Or perhaps it was just an idea that was sitting in the brain and must be got out. We don't expect everything to be the pinnacle of world building.

The purpose of the site is not to provide game ready ideas and scenarios, it is "is a place of creative freedom for role players and game masters with awesome ideas. Over time, the Citadel has turned into a bottomless resource of creativity and inspiration for thousands." Obviously you have a ton of issues with it, but nothing in the writing that sparked an idea or anything else to add or share?

So, I get bothered by inflammatory comments like your opening volley. "This isn't a usable city" and "players don't give a d**n." Seriously? Apparently other commenters accepted it for what it was, a shared creative idea. If the author asked for an editor to review the material, some of your other comments would be more welcome but I think you expect too much sometimes for a site that wants to be a creative outlet. This is simply somebody's idea that they were willing to share, not the next LotR, so shouldn't be condemned for sharing.

Maybe you didn't mean it as critically as you wrote. But read it from the author's perspective and some empathy and maybe you will better see how it comes across.

axlerowes
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I think you are being unfair strolen and I think you need to own what the site has become strolen. Scras recently wrote this about submission quality and he was paraphrasing another one of your luminaries Moonhunter.

"This is not a bad submission, but it isn't a good one either. An ideal to strive for is the Hollywood standard, as in presenting the item as if it were to be used in a movie, comic, or other entertainment venue. What does it look like? Who created it, and why did they do so? It is obviously a powerful weapon, and there are many powerful weapons (YAKAS - yet another kick ass sword), so what makes this one different?"

I am not trying to defend Morningstar's behavior or his "logic". But it is wrong to suggest that this is a free-form open forum for sharing ideas. As you have said it is not "newbie" friendly. Furthermore, to tell Morningstar that this was "written not for him in also absurd". We can only critique what is on the page. We can say how we would use it or we can guess at other uses, but that sword cuts both ways

Finally, I think the responsibility for the "usability" critique lies on you or whoever wrote the voting prompts. Saying something is useful is a coarse critique, sometimes applicable, but largely irrelevant for an idea guild. We should judge whether the idea is well developed, novel, well written, well presented and does it achieve the literal goals set forth on the page. After that, we can get into stuff like entertaining, useful or offensive.

You are right Morningstar is unkind. I have been dismissed by guys like him. (I always hope I am not one, but if I write one that looks like his just leave the comment Morningstar and I will change it. Though to be fair I didn't think his write up of this post was all that off base.) Yet I have also but also been pushed around by you, strolen, for being too "intellectual", "obtuse" or "critical". So my sympathy cuts both ways. . You, strolen, have put forth a system for judging ideas. There is a community built around that. You have achieved something here. I am not knocking that, but I don't think you are entirely comfortable with it. If one just wants to share ideas one could stick it in the forums. But if you want it to be judged you stick it out here. And you are the one that gave the judges the scoring card that read "useable".

I am owning what the site has become...and want to change it back to when it was a fun group sharing ideas instead of a professional critique club.

Moon has his opinion, and so does everybody else. My opinion has changed over time as well, but nothing has changed the reason I built the site. We slowly got to this point over years and years and now, instead of fun, it is stressful...because of these kind of critical comments. We are NOT here to critique each other into polished, professional submissions. We are here to share and build off each others ideas, big or small. I could ask the others but I have been pretty consistent with my vision over time and haven't forced my expectations on others. Although, in hind sight, maybe I should have.

Well, now, the site isn't as fun as it used to be. There have been enough issues over the last couple years, the loss of great writers and a disruption of the environment here that it all boils down to this annoying expectation of perfection.

I am not saying people can't have their own opinion about things and discuss it, but we need treat each author of unknown language, ability and age as an equal and give them the benefit of the doubt. Not everything needs to be fixed, spell checked and rewritten if it does what the author intended it to do: share their idea.

Take what it is and BE CREATIVE with it.
Put your own spin on something you find lacking.
Be supportive instead of disproving.
Read to be helpful not to find flaws.
Assist the post instead of rejecting it.
Be polite instead of rude.


Anybody can call something s**t. It takes a bigger person to find something supportive to say and encourage the author to post more. If I was a new author (or even one that only occasionally comes around) and got hit with this comment...I would do like dozens have in the past: F*&^ this place, I'm out. I don't need that kind of unwanted criticism when I am just trying to share a thought. And this one has a lot of background to it that we apparently don't have yet. I don't want to lose authors to a rude comment anymore.

I disagree with you. I don't much care about well written, well developed, well presented etc. Yes, that is the definition of a 5, basically. Yeah, it is nice, but NOT why I created the site. I created it for creative people to share in whatever form they desired. I am looking for 3 posts all day every day.

I am not saying this is a great post...but, once again, that is NOT the point of the site: to create "5" subs. Some people don't give a crud about making "5" subs, they just want to share. And that is what I want, people to not fear sharing their creative ideas with a group that enjoys the interaction. We have turned from that into grammar/wording nazis expecting everyone wants to write a "5" and we push that way ignoring what the author intended with the submission.

I want the site to be "support group" not "critique group."

Look at my first ideas. They suck, but they are still ideas. Think I would get away with any of that now-a-days? Nope. We would crucify them and that saddens me. We only have 20 something active folks because 10k lurkers read comments like these all over the site and see that our standards are very high, we are critical and there aren't as many people being helpful as we used to have. With as much content as we have, they have no incentive to overcome their trepidation and submit an idea into the harsh commenting climate of the Citadel...and I don't blame them. And if we don't stop these kind of comments, we are going to lose more active folks and turn into an idea archive without a community.

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Offline Aramax

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2015, 11:15:45 AM »
Amen
Fighting for peace is like having sex for virginity

Offline axlerowes

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2015, 11:55:25 AM »
You are going to keep voting so we can rank creativity? Why do you want a site of sticks and carrots?  ( I have had this argument before regarding this site in RL and I think the sticks and carrots help cement the community)  If you keep the ranking, I think you should drop the usefulness prompts.   It is wrong of you to prompt Morngingstar to judge something on usefulness and then bash him for using that scale.  You want people nicer in their comments but then I believe you were harsh on him.   He is trying to express himself as well.

You care if something is well written because you care if an idea is communicated clearly.  That is what well-written means. Flowerly language, cute turns of phrase and all are good, but without clarity there is no transmission of ideas.  Clarity can be and should be more than facts: tone, voice, perspective and all these subtle components of writing are ways in which you can layer content.


But the people that have been here for years have to progress as writers. Is the site going to progress with them?

Could you create a  newbie function, so sort of special halo for the first five posts or something.   

« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 12:14:45 PM by axlerowes »

Offline Strolen

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2015, 02:58:52 PM »
Voting. That is an entirely different conversation. I may have muddied the water following your example of using voting. In this case, I want to concentrate, specifically, on the comment itself. I didn't even pay attention to what vote that sub had, it was immaterial to my original issue.

If you don't see the problem with the comment, I will repeat the main problem I had one more time. To tell somebody without caveat that "This isn't a usable city" and a blanket statement like "most players don't give a d**n about..." is ego crushing and it is a level of rudeness and elitism that I don't want on the site. I hate to pick on this so hard (Morningstar has dozens of great comments and has been a whirlwind of activity that I love) but instead of arguing the principle, you are getting too far in the weeds and trying to defend something that most reasonable people would find just plain mean.

The voting prompts came through demand, just as the removal seems to be the latest trend. We also didn't have the 0.5 parts earlier, that was requested as well. I tend to do as the community dictates, or have in the past. Still, the votes are a separate issue from the comments and I don't want to combine them. I see what you are driving at, but you can't tell me you really believe that the comment was driven by the vote text...

What level of clarity do you require? As a default level, this site seems to believe a college level review of grammar, sentence structure and formatting is required. (Do we require the Oxford Comma?) I am good with Freshman high school level (talking the inferior public school of the US, not some other country with higher standards :) ). There can be A LOT wrong with a submission that I can easily look past if the idea in the center is solid. If the grammar and such is to a level to be so bad that I can't even make out the topic, we would identify it and put it back into "In Work" for the author and let them know, politely and with respect, that it isn't ready for us. Yes, I have levels of need for ideas but they aren't that high.

However, if there are a bunch of erros, mizspelings and stuff that stuff is odd and redundantly weird and not right and little bit off BUT I can still figure out the core thought they are trying to put forth...then why badger the person about some superficial issues and ignore the real reason for the submission? Rejoice that there is somebody that took the time to register and submit a thought to our collection and embrace the person for the attempt. Yes, warm and fuzzy unicorns. Why they hell not? Why do we feel that we have to impose our high standards on a newbie or somebody's 100th sub? If you are *that* awesome at writing and creativity then you are a MENTOR and should take this new protege under your wing and give them the positive support needed to grow into a great writer. You can't expect anybody to have mastery at anything without practice. And it seems like we don't allow practice here, we require completed excellence else we are offended by the offerings.

It is our attitudes and expectations. Because we do have AWESOME writers and we are used to it. When you compare some things to what we have, sure they might suck.....but do they really? Again, what do you want out of this site? Elitist professionalism that only those with college English classes under their belt can attain, or a place where people that have a passion for our hobby have the freedom to come in and put in some poor submissions, receive *constructive* criticism and encouragement and are excited to come back and try to see if they can do better on their next idea? OR, do you want to tell them that they can't spell, their sentence structure is confusing and their idea is a stupid cliche that we have seen 1000 times so nobody will like it. As an author, which would you prefer? And, yes, extremes, but go with the principle of what I am saying not a singular instance.

And, for those that want to have that extra level of criticism for whatever reason. Ask for it. Just like those that want to tell us what they voted by putting it in the comment, put it in your submission that you welcome deeper critiques and that you won't get bent out of shape when receiving them. Again, just because a cross section of people want and enjoy that level of peer review doesn't mean everybody does.

The site has progressed with the writers....and I think that is the problem that we have getting and keeping any new blood. The writers can progress to whatever point they want, and the site should support that...but not to the detriment of new members that are just starting out or those that want to join just for fun. The site (and by site, I pretty much mean the Strolenati) should be able to embrace all levels of experience and skill. Right now, we kinda don't.

And this is a blanket statement that I am at fault with just as much as any. I am comfortable being a hypocrite in this respect too. I am sure there are comments that I have made in the past that might be construed as rude. I know that there were some dark elf assassin wizard type trends that got hit around a bit and I probably joined that dead horse train wreck. But I like to think most of my comments and ideas were mostly supportive or helped add to the idea. Where I felt the need to critique, I hope that I did it in a way that was polite and helpful vs rude and dismissive. That is all I am pushing for now. Soften the blow a bit if you need to condemn a submission.

We can't make everyone happy, but there needs to be an expected level of politeness and support in a community to make it work.

And the newbie thing is kinda already there. The skull on the left changes as they person has been around. Hover over it and it will give a quick snapshot of their experience level. But, really, do we need an identifier to be polite to each other? Even if it is Scras writing his 89764 submission, if he falls off the wagon (probably writing drunk) do we really tear him up over spelling and grammar when there is a sweet ass idea there? Or do we ignore some of the garbled sentences and misspellings and congratulate him on a cool thought and put in our 2 cents? Right now it seems we would want him to fix all his spelling and not say much about the actual idea....

I want this site to prosper. We have gone through a TON of ups and downs. Traditionally, the summer seems to be the slowest and picks back up when school is back in. We have had times where we saw 40+ registered members on at a time, but then it wanes again. Not sure where they all go, but I think if we support each other, feed off each other's ideas and create an environment where people aren't so scared to post something imperfect that it will show the 10k lurkers a month that we welcome new ideas. Even our current members would probably be more apt to submit more. I am not the greatest writer by a long shot. I am not even sure when I decided that I would concentrate on coding more than writing....but I can tell you it was definitely because I was intimidated by the expectations that the site has. I want to get back to the point where anybody can have a stupid idea and post it without worrying about getting jacked up about it. Sure, comments, questions and concerns but not outright "this post is horrible" type responses.





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Offline axlerowes

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2015, 03:52:02 PM »
Woah, nobody was really talking about grammar. Where did that come from?

Offline Strolen

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2015, 03:53:44 PM »
Again, you are seeing the trees instead of the forest.

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Offline Ancient Gamer

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2015, 04:06:45 PM »
What is at the core here is how people behave.

No vote description text says that you should slay an author if you find his work to be sub-par.

With a lighter, more positive tone among the authors, lurkers will find joining more appealing.

****************

In 2004, after 1-2 years of lurking, I decided to join. I was timid. Luminaries such as Iain and ephemeralstability were blowing my mind with their ground breaking work.
CaptainPenguin baffled me with his amazingly well worded tales of exotic worlds and settings.

I started posting, and people rushed to my posts, commented, encouraged.

It was a whirlwind of activity, of positivity, and I grew as an author, as a roleplayer.

In 2006 I got a pm in my inbox. It was from this new dude, Murometz, that praised my Coldforged setting, especially the Prophecies of Hope adventures. He wanted to collaborate and my heart soared. I was so effing proud. I wanted to do stuff, write stuff.

Sure, we had issues back then. A couple of people felt that they meant more than others and stepped on toes, told other people that their work was less than what they did.

And they were no fun.

But they were a minority (albeit a powerful one)

*********************

This thread is likely to hurt morningstar's feelings, as his post has been selected as an example of what we don't like around here.

I have read much of what he writes, and he means well.

I hope emotions stay calm, and that we all take this to heart.

Let us support each other from now on.
Like it was 2004.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 04:14:12 PM by Ancient Gamer »
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Offline axlerowes

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2015, 04:19:52 PM »
I see now, good point

Offline Longspeak

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2015, 04:51:14 PM »
Strolen,

I support entirely the spirit of your message here. However, I think beginning any conversation about what the site has become based on the opinions of a rude reviewer or an oddly blunt defender has already gotten off track before it starts.

Morningstar isn't an example of "what the site has become." He's only an example of a guy leaving rude, unhelpful feedback. The site didn't make him that way; he showed up that way. He can hide behind the words you created for his voting. But he can't use that an an excuse for rude feedback, nor should the site take the blame. I've left my own reviews which left a lot to be desired in the "constructive feedback" department, and the site isn't to blame for those either. The blame for my crappy feedback rests entirely with ME, just as the blame for Morningstar's crappy feedback rests entirely with HIM.

Now, having said that, yes, there are issues to discuss. But first among them in my book is not voting, or tutoring writers or reviewers. It's GETTING MORE PEOPLE, and KEEPING THEM. This place has been dead as the proverbial can of spam for months. I can't remember the last time I popped into chat and saw someone was actually there. I haven't helped in this regard either, tied up in my real world issues, not writing, etc. But I'm only one of how many users? Where are they?

What this site has become, to my mind, is a ghost town. How can we fix THAT?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 05:28:05 PM by Longspeak »

Offline Strolen

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2015, 05:20:23 PM »
Truth.

The comment was only a catalyst for something we have been  taking about for years... Literally years. Sorry it is getting so much attention when that is not what I am trying to accomplish.
 
Had to start from something and the timing of it and my work on the new Citadel trying to figure out how to make it more friendly all came together in this rant.

The thing that we have come up with, over time, is our ivory tower stance on things. Maybe just a contributing factor, but a large one.

People are too apprehensive to join or post due to the high standards that have become the norm over time. We know that from talking to folks about it. We are currently not a very friendly place to post ideas... We are a place for critical criticism and you stress out when you post ideas. With help, I can probably name a dozen or more people that have been chased off because of this reason. Granted, some thought they were beyond criticism so got butt hurt, but if we would have come from a supportive POV instead, we probably could have saved them.

We sometimes do take our writing too seriously and personally and I think that is a primary barrier of getting new users. We eat our own. Who wants to be part of that?
 
I also think the tide turned on us years ago when we changed the forum expectations and took away the goofy nonsense forums and forced actual idea discussion into the Citadel. I don't think we ever recovered from that because it made everything so formal. Not sure I miss all the nonsense, but there was certainly a freedom of expression and sharing that is missing now.

I don't pretend to have the answers. All I know is that we need to make a change and the main one I can come up with us how we support each other and the ideas we love. Just in the last few months there has been another rise in people being offended by comments. I think if we make a point of what I talked to above, we can make this fun again.

If posting is more stressful then fun, what's the point?

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Offline Longspeak

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2015, 05:28:32 PM »
I added this as an edit, then decided it should be on its own:

Actually, I will add one thing. Strolen, you don't get to decide what other people want to get out of this site. You DO get to decide if you will help deliver that or not. For example, the thing you say this site isn't for is exactly what I began posting here to get. If the site were suddenly no longer allowed to critique my work, to help me improve, I would have no reason to post anything.

I think the site can be a great place to support writers. Part of that comes from an attitude. "Critique" isn't a dirty word. We can encourage people to give, and to accept criticism meant to HELP, rather than to tear down. I'm working to bring that kind of feedback, and I'm always hoping someone will give it. My single best moment on this site wasn't when my Organic NPCs sub got so much positive attention. It was when PoisonAlchemist looked at something I wrote and explained why it didn't click for her, and how I might make it better. Her feedback was the single best piece of feedback I've seen, and far more valubale than a thousand "5/5 HOH Would Read Again" posts.

So if that is to be part of the discussion of what the site has become, there's my vote. The site should be a place of constructive and supportive feedback, but also honest and well-intentioned criticism.

Offline axlerowes

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2015, 05:32:40 PM »
Voting. That is an entirely different conversation. I may have muddied the water following your example of using voting. In this case, I want to concentrate, specifically, on the comment itself. I didn't even pay attention to what vote that sub had, it was immaterial to my original issue.
 

My original point was that paradigm set up by the voting made such comments such as "usefulness" germane. A vote of 1 would have been the same as saying this is useless. I don't know how he voted.  But i think the votes frame the conversation and thus the comment.  But I hope you get that, it is important to me that you understand what I was trying to say strolen. 

Quote
If you don't see the problem with the comment, I will repeat the main problem I had one more time. To tell somebody without caveat that "This isn't a usable city" and a blanket statement like "most players don't give a d**n about..." is ego crushing and it is a level of rudeness and elitism that I don't want on the site. I hate to pick on this so hard (Morningstar has dozens of great comments and has been a whirlwind of activity that I love) but instead of arguing the principle, you are getting too far in the weeds and trying to defend something that most reasonable people would find just plain mean.
  I wasn't trying to defend his comment. I said exactly that in my original comment.  I just thought your retort was  little rough and unfair.  Sometimes I think you don't read what I wrote closely (or my wording is so rough that make no sense-which is likely) and you just respond to a few point quickly and emotionally. 



Quote
What level of clarity do you require?
  When I was talking about stuff being well written I wasn't referring to grammar.  I never vote on grammar but I do vote. 

Quote
However, if there are a bunch of erros, mizspelings and stuff that stuff is odd and redundantly weird and not right and little bit off BUT I can still figure out the core thought they are trying to put forth...then why badger the person about some superficial issues and ignore the real reason for the submission? Rejoice that there is somebody that took the time to register and submit a thought to our collection and embrace the person for the attempt. Yes, warm and fuzzy unicorns. Why they hell not? Why do we feel that we have to impose our high standards on a newbie or somebody's 100th sub? If you are *that* awesome at writing and creativity then you are a MENTOR and should take this new protege under your wing and give them the positive support needed to grow into a great writer. You can't expect anybody to have mastery at anything without practice. And it seems like we don't allow practice here, we require completed excellence else we are offended by the offerings.
  I am all for discussing the core idea. But style matters too.

Quote
It is our attitudes and expectations. Because we do have AWESOME writers and we are used to it. When you compare some things to what we have, sure they might suck.....but do they really? Again, what do you want out of this site? Elitist professionalism that only those with college English classes under their belt can attain, or a place where people that have a passion for our hobby have the freedom to come in and put in some poor submissions, receive *constructive* criticism and encouragement and are excited to come back and try to see if they can do better on their next idea? OR, do you want to tell them that they can't spell, their sentence structure is confusing and their idea is a stupid cliche that we have seen 1000 times so nobody will like it. As an author, which would you prefer? And, yes, extremes, but go with the principle of what I am saying not a singular instance.
this is great point we can only discuss what is on the page or in the cases of multi post idea, what is on the pages.  It is wrong to judge something based on meta content such as how "useful" this is to me or whether or not you like sci-fi or not.  Does the post have an idea, is that idea well developed etc...


Quote
And, for those that want to have that extra level of criticism for whatever reason. Ask for it. Just like those that want to tell us what they voted by putting it in the comment, put it in your submission that you welcome deeper critiques and that you won't get bent out of shape when receiving them. Again, just because a cross section of people want and enjoy that level of peer review doesn't mean everybody does.
  Could just submit a lot of stuff as stubs or none vote submission.  You don't like that though. Why?

Quote
The site has progressed with the writers....and I think that is the problem that we have getting and keeping any new blood. The writers can progress to whatever point they want, and the site should support that...but not to the detriment of new members that are just starting out or those that want to join just for fun. The site (and by site, I pretty much mean the Strolenati) should be able to embrace all levels of experience and skill. Right now, we kinda don't.
  Okay


We can't make everyone happy, but there needs to be an expected level of politeness and support in a community to make it work.

Quote
Or do we ignore some of the garbled sentences and misspellings and congratulate him on a cool thought and put in our 2 cents? Right now it seems we would want him to fix all his spelling and not say much about the actual idea....
I don't know anyone on the site that really harps on grammar. if so I would have been lynched long ago. I think this is an imagine issue.


What I enjoy about the site:

World Building. This format provides a unique format for world building and you get to interact directly with the authors of said worlds.

Discussion:  I like discussing and tossing around ideas.  I enjoyed digging into the material.

Writing Games:  Decathros, the Okelai, 100 word items and quests are fun.  You get prompt to write on something that combines an assignment and inspiration which I think forces more creativity than either alone.

Humor: s**t can be funny yo.







Offline Strolen

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2015, 05:32:56 PM »
Quote
The site should be a place of constructive and supportive feedback, but also honest and well-intentioned criticism.

I like that synopsis better than mine!

Almost have a new vision statement.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 05:47:03 PM by Strolen »

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Offline Strolen

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2015, 05:43:57 PM »
Thanks axle for your continued discussion!

I definitely have biases (grammar and stubs being the two most well known I think) and I probably do exaggerate their prevalence because I notice them more. They are often innocent assistance too but I probably fixate on them.  :) 

Curious if anybody has other reasons why our active membership is so low. What changes can we make to the site, or ourselves, that might increase participation?

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Offline Longspeak

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2015, 05:55:09 PM »
If I could make the rule about voting and feedback it would be something like:

"Give either 5/5 OR an explanation if where the work fell short of perfection in your opinion, along with thoughts for improving."

I admit that's a lot of work for the reviewer. I haven't done so well, though I have started trying to do that. But its an attitude worth looking at, I think.

Offline Strolen

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2015, 06:04:22 PM »
Mine would be, "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all."

Say 2 nice things for every bad thing. :)

I appreciate that stance but I would disagree. Generally, many of my ideas would be one shot. I have an idea, here it is...next. I generally have no interest in analyzing it, reviewing it, or revisiting it. I am probably a minority, but there are more like me. And even those that like good feedback may have submissions they just want to share and move on. I wouldn't necessarily want every submission to be reviewed to show how it could be a 5, unless they asked for it.

I have a few ideas on how to mark these as such (I want or don't want criticism type thing) but everything quickly gets complex and I want posting, commenting and voting to be a more simple process...not with all kinds of added requests or rules depending on who posted it and their feelings about it. All the extra baggage attached to each sub makes it harder to comment and vote.

No good solution, but I do reread these type of threads when I am designing.

(and Axlerowes, you are right about missing things in this recent volley, have been on my phone for most of the day so not very convenient for a discussion such as this and made scrolling all around to try and get our points across. Sorry.)

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Offline Longspeak

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2015, 06:20:12 PM »
I appreciate that stance but I would disagree. Generally, many of my ideas would be one shot. I have an idea, here it is...next. I generally have no interest in analyzing it, reviewing it, or revisiting it.

I would agree with this if we were talking about the ideas that pop onto the bottom of the page. Or even stubs or 100 word (What Longspeak calls "What? Is that it?" subs) works. But if someone writes 2000-5000 words, it merits more than just a number. Even if you don't want to review THAT work, don't you want to use the ideas in your NEXT work?

That said, I think it's a completely valid choice each writer should make for himself. Maybe you could make voting optional, controlled per post or per user. I mean the bottom of each sub says "So and So Welcomes your thoughts!" Maybe... turn that off for those who don't ACTUALLY welcome your thoughts?

Offline valadaar

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2015, 06:29:54 PM »
One idea i had to mark a sub as open season for well reasoned critique, would be use of a Region perhaps? 
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Offline Strolen

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2015, 06:31:12 PM »
Freetext?

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Offline Longspeak

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2015, 06:57:09 PM »
I like the idea of a region, but Freetext would also work. In either case, the trick would be to define what it means and get people to stick with it. If I'm in the "Just Vote, Don't Talk" region, and I give a comment like the one I just wrote in First of Cities... there's no mechanic to stop me. I imagine someone could remove it, but that's it.

That said, I'd honor it... if I noticed it. :)

Offline valadaar

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2015, 07:00:33 PM »
As a mod, I'd enforce it...
   
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Offline Moonlake

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2015, 07:08:06 PM »
I am like Longspeak- I (and the other Moon who left) loved this site for the "harsh criticisms" that Strolen and a few others says are a major impediment for new users etc. Having said that, occasionally I do get into downs over the very "harsh criticisms" that I love when I put a world building sub because I wasn't a true gamer and I was basically submitting meta-game subs that had little applicability in actual RP. And having established myself here for several years, I did have a clear idea of my readership and did always know and expect that such meta-games subs are probably going to be received somewhat indifferently by most other Strolenati. Yet, I do distinctly remember one instance where I felt hounded by a comment that told me that there are more content to be included etc. etc. when all I wanted to do in that particular sub was to get out a piece of background lore for my world. After cooling down, I eventually updated the sub by including an Author's notes section up on the top declaring that what I wanted to get out is just the background lore (of course, by the time that happened, all that wanted to comment on it had already commented and it didn't help the interaction between me as author and those had already commented). Occasionally, I do feel that posting new subs on Strolen are "major work" because one needs to actively declare your intentions otherwise if it comes into conflict with Strolen says has come into place as the norm here- this Gold Standard seemingly championed by established users including myself. But for me, this is what I'm here for and so I reckon I should bear it.

Anyway, the above is more of a personal ramble. What I really wanted to say is that I thought this is what will be addressed in v6. There are going to be all these auras associated with how particular Strolenatis tend to vote, the default voting mode, and there was even talk of a new type of sub that disallows voting altogether by Val. As for Morningstar's comment that started this thread, I would say that Strolen should just PM Morningstar and tell him that as admin, he thinks the comment would be rude etc. and please choose wordings carefully next time or sth like that. Like Longspeak said above, I don't think this as the same thing as the Golden standard norm in the Citadel. There're several things all mixed up in this thread but that's bound to happen in a forum thread.

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Offline Longspeak

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2015, 07:52:36 PM »
As a mod, I'd enforce it...
So would I. You know. In theory. :P

Offline Strolen

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2015, 07:59:32 PM »
Made this months and months and months ago when there was some inflamed commenting going on and people got upset.

http://strolen.com/commentrules

I didn't publish it because I did it in like an hour and wanted to solidify the message.

But very relevant for the current discussion I think.

(I almost forgot about it)

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Offline valadaar

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Re: What the Citadel has Become
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2015, 08:34:39 PM »
One comment - we may very well publish some of these at some point, and I will day its a lot easier selecting subs closer to publication ready :)

Regarding region vs freetext, regions get front pages we can use to explain the rules.

   
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