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Author Topic: Refuge Beneath the Waves  (Read 14780 times)

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Offline MysticMoon

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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2015, 11:14:29 AM »
what happened to the sea mammals?

Oh... good question. More than likely they would have been severely impacted by the weaponized kalleum. As much as I've been wanting to avoid mutants in the setting, I am tempted to have mutant sea critters. But then, maybe I've been looking at too many Mutant Epoch books lately :P
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Offline MysticMoon

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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2015, 11:27:41 AM »
Just read your 2 part okekai, axle. Excellent job of bringing the setting, and Marine Ducks specifically, to life.
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Offline Aramax

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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2015, 11:57:50 AM »
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Offline axlerowes

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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2015, 12:38:09 PM »
Regarding paper, I wasn't arguing for our against it, I was suggesting an explanation for the wide spread existence of paper and alternative to paper: using glass slides to hold written media. 

What did you think was good idea?

Offline MysticMoon

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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2015, 12:43:54 PM »
I thought your alternative sources of paper was an excellent idea, as well as questioning my original dismissal of paper in general. I plan to work your idea into the original sub at some point.
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Offline Aramax

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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2015, 05:54:01 AM »
I don't think that the mainstream should be all that well defined. You've got a situation where cities are very isolated from each other and a grand culture would not develop. I feel all of the ideas we have for the mainstream are correct, a little bit of all of it would be true somewhere. My recent bunch of subs were a rush of creativity that I felt would add nitly little tidbits of culture. I think the Victorian Morals of when they first went under should be our guide. I don't know about slavery thou. It seems to me those bits of human frailty would be left behind and in such a relatively low population, it would be easy for skilled individuals to enter a small but thriving middle class and poss even further. All that being said, I don't much care what direction we take this in, I am very happy with my role of as axle put it, defining by negative.
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Offline axlerowes

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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2015, 09:31:36 AM »
I like the idea of different cities having very different cultures, it would allow you run with very different ascetics and character archetypes in each city.
Ideas not suggestions:

You could have a Stalinist style communist city, grey, drab, lots of double speak, secret police and fatalism.

You could Peter the Great Style city, east meets west opulence, the perfect storm of cultural insecurity and cultural narcissism, an absolute leader, an entrenched old school artistoracy, an up and coming military fashion and of course fatalism.

You could have a Yankee city, capitalist, militant, vulgar, strong sense of individuality and personal determination, with a cultural insecurity, and a latent loyalties to the other cultures of the deep.

Anyway Aramax, I am not a historian but I am a fan of history, you have made me realize that other than through novels and other fictional media my only sourced materials for the English Victorian era have come from a bio on Queen Victoria (not directly culturally helpful), a bio on Charles Darwin and the Dickens stuff they made us read in High School.  I haven't read much English-English literature from that era.  I got the ideas of rationalism and utilitarianism from Darwin's bio.  So can give me a quick primer on the Victorian Era.  I am more aware of Regency era England, as I am sure are most americans, and the rich cultured aristocat standing on the backs of the poor sounds pretty Regency era to me. 

You have done this three times already

Samurai-made me realize other the through fictional (which I am sure are dipped in fact) movies I know nothing about the Samurai

Zulu-Almost nothing, I priced ethnographers works on the Zulu but they were expensive.

Now the Victorian Era....but I am interested in exploring as a setting and roleplaying tool the academic climate that Darwin was floating in during that time and the Academic climate post darwin.   




Offline Aramax

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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2015, 11:23:29 AM »
Glad I inspired you, as you have done the same for me! In collage my primary areas of instruction were history, philosophy and theater(I have a minor in African- American studies,which is solely based on taking karate classes! LOL but true!)
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Offline axlerowes

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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2015, 11:39:10 AM »
so can you give us that short primer on Victorian era culture, don't care if it is factual, just want to know how you understand it.

but I have been listening to Podcast documentary on Victoria this morning, it is crystallizing for me  that the Victorian period was a transition period as the excesses of the Regency period gave way to a more egalitarian period.     


Offline Aramax

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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2015, 11:44:19 AM »
Not really, my areas of history were earlier English,Irish, Chinese and Russian. Plus that was almost 30 years ago. You'd be better off with Wikipedia
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Offline axlerowes

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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2015, 01:39:23 PM »
I don't care how the posters on Wikipedia understand the Victorian age, I am interested in your understanding of it.

Offline Aramax

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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2015, 02:14:12 PM »
It was an age of science and great billionaires, the expansion of the British empire to its maximum,"The White man's Burden, an age when an english reporter would charge into battle pistol drawn and fired. An age of the growth of electricity, an arms race that ultimately yielded WW1. An age of hidden sex, fetish and satanism of the upper class, widespread prostitution, When Victoria was asked by a new bride about sex she said"Close your eyes and think of England"

In America the only thing that mattered was how many dollars in your pocket

The great UNWASHED masses, the rise of nationalism, The rise of communism and socialism and the anarchy movement.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 07:51:31 AM by Aramax »
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Offline Aramax

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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2015, 08:09:07 AM »
a couple of thoughts

not sure I see slavery, it seems to me that due to the limited population , skilled individuals could easily move to a small but thriving middle class, perhaps with a glass ceiling that would prevent all but a very few from entering the upper class. again due to isolation of cities many regonal variations could exist.

a meritocracy where testing yields your place in society, similar to old China

we do want to not bite off more than we can chew , so I think a regional approach to what we are going to work on would be appropriate, my suggestion being the Atlantic Ocean
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Offline MysticMoon

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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2015, 09:34:07 AM »
Good discussion on the various cultures and cities. I'm thinking 1-5 major cities for each main culture (good starting list/flavors, axle), plus a number of minor cities, and a plethora of smaller settlements. The small settlements closer to the larger ones probably reflect the attitudes of the overall culture (although more "rural" in nature) while the ones further out will have subcultures and strangeness all their own.

So, what we need is at least a list of the cultures and the major cities of each.
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Offline Aramax

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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2015, 09:38:56 AM »
I def feel ther should be an England and an America based on tech,wealth and geographic position. thees are to me must have with logic of setting so far, thus my comment on doing the Atlantic first
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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2015, 09:58:30 AM »
That makes senses to me. I'd like to do at least a list of the major settlements, but focus in on one specific region to start with. That will be the region the PbP is set in, so think of what you would like to actually play in.

So... Yankee, British, or...?
Chosen of Aktagarti – Divine Synod Guild – Level 1
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The old man, grey-haired, braid hanging down.
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Offline Aramax

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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #66 on: February 14, 2015, 10:02:39 AM »
Also Ive been thinking about war, normally a fight over ideology, religion or resources .  I think the resource fought over would be MANPOWER, slave raids and secret agents, enemy union organizers. A communist state would fit well.

also do to the inability to defend underwater domes a detente among the powers that be would lead to a situation very similar to the Cold War, with elite special forces being the primary military are of the great powers
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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #67 on: February 14, 2015, 10:22:16 AM »
Based on geography and the internal logic of the way the Catastrophic war would be fought my suggestions are Argentina, Brazil, China ,japan, India, South Africa, England and America, assuming an escalation of tech surrounding that war. Do too politics and geography I doubt any of the European powers would survive, only suggestions. Only must have on this list IMHO are America ,England and Japan
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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #68 on: February 14, 2015, 10:50:30 AM »
How about One good America and one evil one, one on the Atlantic and one on the Pacific, they would lip service with a "united" government.

The Panama canal could be a really good source of tension between the major powers,although from a later period it would be a logical construct of the American response

Also ,again due to geography maybe only 2 major regions Atlantic and Pacific

sizable German comunity tied to one of the bigger "third world"(currantly)powers

At the beginning of the 18th century, America and England were often at odds , A French presence in this new America could be argued for.

Tying Kalleum to another real life element would be a good place to suggest where the resources were fought over.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 11:05:37 AM by Aramax »
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Offline Aramax

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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #69 on: February 14, 2015, 12:46:30 PM »
i THINK WE MIGHT WANT TO CONSIDER HAVING A WORLD WAR START 1800-1840S , and having that be the jumping off point of our history some potentialities
The French revolution
Napolianic Wars
War of 1812
a later conflict between America and England
Colonial war starting in Africa or Iniidia
The Opium war in China
The Crimean War
????????????????
I really like the idea that either Napoleon or Pres. Andrew Jackson started it all
am I correct in seeing that it was a very long war? 25-75 years?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 01:44:46 PM by Aramax »
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Offline axlerowes

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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #70 on: February 14, 2015, 01:50:04 PM »
British Style Community

Location: Off the Coasts of Spain and Morocco (It is warm and Shallow)

Original Settlers: Elements of British Naval Hegemony Head Quartered in Gibraltar

Founding Father:  The Admiral T. Cochrane, Earl of Dundonald, 1st Marquess of Maranhao.  Commander of Atlantic Submersible Fleet

Founding Philosophy:  Cochrane and his supporters sought to save the cream of civilization; artists, skilled technicians, scientists, buissnesses men and academics.  Cochrane was not religious or poltical, which ironically separated him from most of the military commanders.  Cochrane’s vision was to save the best humanity had to offer.  His society is heavily captilistic and consumer culture.  Societal values shifted towards utilitarianisms in both academics and business, which are the two strongest drivers of the community.  There is still however a peerage system that was carried through either via social momentum or a hold overs from the naval culture that emphasized a difference between the ranks Officers and Gentlemen with the common seaman. 

Founding Populations:  While Cochrane and his group centralized their power in the Atlantic they did have command of the largest global submarine fleet, and the retained control of global telegraph systems until finally failed.  Thus while most of the founders where members of the British navy or British desirables, Cochrane was able to gather what he considered to be worth while people from all over the world. Cochrane community offered safety to academic and skilled workers from all over the world.

Themes: 

The overweening conceit: Hubris

Nationalism

Stoic British Reserve,

Rigid Class System: A Hybrid Upper Class of Business, Academics and Military.  (The leaders of Government always hold a military, academic position and are invested in private interests, often all three.  Indeed they expects to sever in some other capacity besides government for governments sake.)
 
An Arts Scene,

Capitalism,

Consumerism, 

Dry Humor,

Intellectualism

Rationalism

Economics & Government (these idea may not always be compatible):  Capitalism, Consumerism, Republic Style Government (Members of the Peerage Elected by the Masses), Social Engineering, Populist Government Institutions

Mantra: The Goal of Government Should be to Allow Great Men to Do Great Things for Their Nation.

Hard Notes from History:  Many of the founders were Eugenics Philosphers or held Eugenic inspired believes and social engineering programs have been ruthless and unfair.  They broke from the main British Government at the end of the war and were essentially traitors.   They did not take many, if any, survivors from Spain, Portugal or Morocco even though they could have.  They preferred to search the globe for more "desirable "people to import.

Cultural Ideal: The cultural ideal is a well educated wealthy renaissance man or woman, who is completely comfortable in military or academic settings.  This is also wrapped up with a culture of vanity and ambition, in which those in power would be loath  to show weakness or share power.   The cultural idea is strongly wrapped up with a Nationalist Ideal.  The people of Rawlwick are the best of the best and thus deserve what is best.

Counter/ Sub-Cultures: 
The Humanist or the Populists.  This group believes "that we are truly are brother's keeper" and wealth and privilege should not come at the cost of human suffering.  They are largest minority among the Elite.  The cultural majority believes these to be impractical bleeding heart liberals would weaken the country by supporting the weakest parts of the country as opposed to the Nation's strengths.
Transcendalist:  These would be the largest group if they were not subdivided into the Machinama and the Eugenic advocates.  Both believe that man must evolve and that evolotion can sped up and directed by social engineering.  The cultural majority tends to agree with the sentiments of these groups, but they view their social engineering programs as Ivory Tower fantasies. 


City: Rawlwick

Settlements:
Jasper (shallowest closet to the continent)

Marrine Ducks (Deepest, Isolated)


Corporations:
Symth-Templin Group (Agrodome operation and Pneumatic Machine Design and Construction)
Gantrallic & Co (mine Operation)
 K&C Mining Co (mine operation)
Hallum Agrodome Operating Co

Inspirations:  Thomas Cochrane was the real life inspiration of Aubrey in the Master and Commander Series.  Cultural Ideas Taken from novels and histories set between the 1770s to the 1820s. The time of the Sharpe Novel series, the Master and Commander Series, and the Jane Austin Novels…all that plus a submarine fleet.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 10:15:30 PM by axlerowes »

Offline Aramax

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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #71 on: February 14, 2015, 01:56:51 PM »
Very nice axle!
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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #72 on: February 14, 2015, 04:22:22 PM »
New Philadelphia
Located at the mouth of the Delaware River, it was founded on the best intentions of the American government and Venture capitalists. It was one of the very first underwater cities and as such they made some curious and unusual choices in what they brought with them. The most unusual was cattle. Cattle were a very,very poor choice to pin underwater hopes on. While the herd is very small these days, it is still a source of income with the sale of incredibly expensive beef . Even at the exorbitant rates charged for it. The herd barely pays for itself. But it is a source of pride for the residents of New Philly ,so the cows stay.
As with the cows, the government is unusual too.

The government is a weird mix of incredible union control, socialism and capitalism, it is nearly incomprehensible to an outsider. A complex system of union bosses, Elite upper class,elected officials, The military and a Women's Senate.runs the city. There is one chamber of representatives from each of those groups. It is sort of an Athenian democracy that gets very little done. These houses of representatives can mostly only accomplish the election of a president of each one of them. These five choose a Senior President among them, and rule together as the executive branch.It seams to work for them, but the citizens spend an inordinate amount of time on politics, elections and ballot initiatives,with many individuals able to vote in 2 or 4 of the elections . They seem to like it!

The houes are divided on a very rock paper scissors system. Each house has dominion over one other. A bill can origin in any one of the Senates. but each Senate has veto power over one other union boses have veto over Upper class, Upper class has veto over elected officials. Electiced officials have veto over
The womens senate. The womens senate has veto over the military. The Woman's senate is an anachronism as men can be elected to the chamber but cannot vote on it.Everybody and his brother is in an elected position.

Adventure Hooks

Cattle rustlin'!(of course)

The Union bosses are constantly trying to'export' unions, this can be a source of adventure from either side of it.It can cause trouble on an  "international scale'

The adventurers are tasked with the herculean chore of navigating the mix of politics to get a trade agreement. Good Luck!
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 07:39:12 PM by Aramax »
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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #73 on: February 15, 2015, 08:10:41 AM »
LIBERTAD (spanish for freedom)

Prussia , realizing that it was going to lose the war badly, formed an alliance with Argentina. Tech from Germany would build the city and the Argentine upper class would have an exit strategy. One of the last underwater cities, it was hasty and slipshod. The size of the city is huge but with below average quality on the less important domes, many became tombs. A feeling of dread filled the workers with many refusing to leave the safety of there better built, strategic domes. As more and more of the workers domes failed, the dread turned to revolt among them, leading to civil war.More domes were destroyed in the fighting bur neither side made any attempts to disrupt power, food or oxygen supply. The workers emerged victorious

Throughout the conflict the Prussian minority mostly emerged unscathed, since both sides viewed them as essential to survival.

Today Libertad is divided into two societies, The masses of the city with its one party democracy, and the German speaking intellectuals and technocrats.
Tension run high between the two groups, with frequent assaults and murders committed by both sides. The Prussians are constantly being courted by other cities, so the dictators of the city give them special privileges. This extends to the extreme of the Prussian's having their own small but elite military force, carrying on the best traditions of military service.The German -speakers are also ,selectively, taking the best of the masses to serve in this force.They are responsible for protecting key facilities in the city.

The ruling Spanish party(Heiro,Iron) varies greatly in its grip on power. from true democracy,oligarchy or one men dictator. Currently it is a cult of personality surrounding the dictator, who calls himself Acero (steel).He keeps a tight rein on power, chaffing at the Prussians. Always the threat of another charismatic leader is a possability
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 08:33:14 AM by Aramax »
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Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves
« Reply #74 on: February 15, 2015, 09:41:31 AM »
STAD (Afrikaans for city)

Located on the Atlantic coast of South Africa, this city was built by an English upper class, a Afrikaner(white Dutch settlers from the 1600s) middle, and a Zulu lower class,reflecting the mores of the times. At first a rigid caste system was present. but as time went on the realities of life under the sea has led to an easing of the class system and the elevating of skilled and talented individuals became a necessity of life. It was felt that the Zulus experience in the gold and diamond mines would be of great value , as well as the idea of avoiding tribal violence by introducing only one tribal group.. So of all the rich culture of Africa ,only the Zulu remain.

The English upper class has for the last 50 years, been slowly introducing the idea of mixing races, with great success..Introducing forced desegregation of schools,work place and promotions.And cash incentives and education vouchers for mixed race children. The Zulus have been only too happy to integrate into the society as a whole. A sizable minority of the Afrikaners are resisting , quite violently. They seek both to maintain cultural and racial purity. Many surrounding settlements consisting of Afrikaner separatists exist. Constant minor warfare is present, Forcing the Stad government to heavily militarize. This has lead to one of the largest navy's of the current era.

About 5 years ago, the navy stepped in and took control of the parliamentary government. In an attempt to settle the conflict down, The coup put in place an Afrikaner commodore as head of state. Unfortunately he was a poor choice as his sympathies were with the rebels.. He rules with a military council, secretly advancing his agenda. Things are not looking good.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 09:56:23 AM by Aramax »
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