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Author Topic: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4  (Read 8418 times)

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Offline MoonHunter

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Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« on: November 08, 2014, 09:20:59 PM »
First, before you go on. Yes I know there is a ed 5.  Keep that out of your mind for a moment.

Second, I am not going to be playing either of these. 

All that said... some back story and then the point of this....

I am shifting my gaming towards PDFs and away from hard copy books.  Games I am playing or I am specifically going to play or have significant components, are the only ones I am getting in hard copy from this point forward.  Everything else is going to be digital in format.  This includes me going back and getting PDFs of games that I already have (or had due to unfortunate water accidents). 

I read game books because I have been doing that since 1978.  I know lots of systems fairly well, but only some in passing.  It is always good to refresh your memory.  Sometimes you even pick up things are are great and useful in other places.  I have my game pdf selection on a flash drive I carry with me (and yes.. it is backed up in two other places not geographically linked.) So.. on the train, on a break at work, or what ever, I will pull out my phone or my tablet and read a game.  Yes, I can read a game straight through.  Yes, I am one of those weirdos that studies games. Yes, none of this should be a surprise... so lets move on. 

So, I don't play D&D.  I don't think that is going to surprise anyone who knows me.  Never acquired a taste for it, even back in the day when it was nearly the only game in town (Thank you Empire of the Petal Throne, Traveller, Runequest, Barsoom, Top Secret, Boot Hill, TFT, Bushido,and others).  I have the core books for aD&D. I have bits and piece of 2nd Ed (I had all the core, but I lent them to someone who would use them back then... never got them back). My white box was trashed sometime before 82.   Still, it is good to keep up.

I have recently acquired a fairly complete set of Edition 3.5 PDFs and Edition 4 PDFs of the core pieces.  I will eventually get around to reading through both. But, I know me. I am going to burn out on D&D after reading one edition's worth.  So one for now, one for sometime in a year or two. 

Which one do you think I should read and why? 
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Offline Pariah

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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2014, 10:53:28 PM »
Eh, I hate myself for saying this, but if you're only going to read 1 of them I'd go with 4th.  5th doesn't seem all that different from 3.5 or Pathfinder, so the slightly more traditional DnD experience will be there to read in a couple of years, while 4th at least tried to do something different with their MMO inspired mechanics.
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Offline Chaosmark

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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2014, 02:34:02 AM »
If you've read Pathfinder or any of its variants, I'd recommend 4e for the variety and differences. Otherwise, I'd do 3e. 4e is so My Unique Snowflake Combat Scenario that it sucks at pretty much anything else. You're not going to get much inspiration from there, to be perfectly honest. 3e at least has enough non-combat stuff to be decent.
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Offline PoisonAlchemist

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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2014, 03:58:56 AM »
Why are you reading them in the first place?
You obviously don't care about mechanics.
Eberron and Faerun never interested you.
You're not going to be able to use any of the neat monsters in the bestiaries.
At best you might get some interesting theme ideas from a few paragraphs out of Frostburn, Sandstorm, and Stormwrack.
Really, why would you bother reading something you don't care about?
And if you don't care, why should we?
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Offline Lady Wolf

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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2014, 11:38:21 AM »
You're not going to be able to use any of the neat monsters in the bestiaries.

Not really sure why he couldn't use the monsters in a different game setting re-statted for whatever system his group prefers?

Some of the cost tables for goods and stuff can be universally helpful no matter the fantasy setting you're playing as can the various spells/magic effects.

To answer the question, 3.5 is a more enjoyable read and easier to use the presented information in a different game setting, 4th lists spell effects and other ranged effects (and movement) in inches/cm (for use with minis) so converting it to feet/meters to get the actual range of effect is a hassle that's just not worth the effort.
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Offline MoonHunter

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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2014, 07:06:08 PM »
Why are you reading them in the first place?

D&D will, for good or ill, be our common tongue... and probably be that way forever.  Besides unless you understand D&D you wouldn't get "Jesus saves and takes half damage" jokes.  So while I don't need to be highly skilled in the game, I should have a passing understanding.  It is also good to understand it in case you want read Midnight, Amythest, or a couple of other more interesting D20 and D&D games (which I own).  Who knows something new might catch my interest. 

Some people read trashy novels or popcorn for the mind stories.  I read game books.  I have read every one of the five hundred or so hard copy game I have - several times (including games in several editions numbers).  A good 95% of those I have never played. Ditto for the several hundred PDFs I own.  I don't collect dice, paint miniatures, or draw characters.  It is my ancillary way of playing in the hobby. 
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 07:24:41 PM by MoonHunter »
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Offline EchoMirage

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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2014, 08:12:07 AM »
I think that 3.5 has more of those "WTF" books and supplements, where you can try to retrace the steps of the mind of someone else, to find "at which point in your thought process did this sound like a good idea?", for example half the spells in the BoEF, any of the books on playing evil characters, a majority of the prestige classes...
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Offline eldarbeast

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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2014, 01:24:04 PM »
I have never found any need to go beyond 2nd Ed. D&D.

Everything has been a bigger, faster hack and slash game without roleplay.

Nuff said!

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Offline Lady Wolf

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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2015, 08:26:59 AM »
I have never found any need to go beyond 2nd Ed. D&D.

Everything has been a bigger, faster hack and slash game without roleplay.

Nuff said!

eldar

Don't you find the lack of roleplaying and interaction /problem solving to be limiting/repetitive? When one takes out the rp from rpg's it tends to feel to me a lot like World of Warcraft which isn't what I set down at the gaming table for.
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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2015, 12:12:27 PM »
3.5e has all those addons, that makes it feel like some Advanced Squad Leader game. It is all about the mechanics, but for what it's worth: It was fun.

Haven't read 4e, but I bought the core rules book for that game as a gift to a youngster that looooves roleplaying and has played in my group for a number of years.

To put it like this: 4e nearly killed his interest for roleplaying. He has owned it for 4 years now, and when we played on the 4th, 5th and 6th day of Christmas, he told me that he never ever wants to read that book, ever again. He wasn't rude, but that was his message as it was read between the lines...

So if 4e fails to inspire even the most devout of roleplayers....

I'd go with 3.5
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Offline valadaar

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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2015, 12:26:16 PM »
I'd give 5th a look. I have the PHB and DMG now and they are very well put together.  It is much less 'feat-heavy' at this point and greatly simplified in numerous ways.

4th ed did not interest me at all. 5th did, and I have been playing D&D since the early 80's.

I will be porting my PBP game over to 5th edition here shortly.

The core rules are available online for free so you can get a taste.
   
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Offline Gossamer

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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2015, 03:20:03 PM »
I've never really gotten why 4e has such a bad rep compared to the others, having come here and tested both 2e and 3 and 3.5, I don't really see what's so magical about those editions. They're all equally terrible when used in pbps. The more I've played, the more I've wanted to move away from the whole dice system, which seems so arbitrary and flawed. Pure chance and statistical probabillity determines whether or not you succede rather than strategy barring gm intervention.

4e has gotten a lot of bad press concerning it being combat oriented, I don't really get that either. When you look at the ogc page for 3.5, it's mostly rules regarding combat there as well. What 4e does have though, is more to keep track of, as it offers you more possible actions.
  Whereas in the others you've got a ranged attack and/or a melee attack, and any item/magic you carry, but most turns you'll just be attacking, attacking, attacking, spamming same old, same old. 4e is dependant on a map-based grid system though, that's another minor flaw, but it's not like the first edition to use maps and miniatures, it's just that the added strategy of the at-wills, encounter and daily powers, most of which have some sort of push/pull or slide power, requires that you keep better track of where you and the baddies are in correlation to eachother, and frankly I don't really see that as a bad thing, I like being able to know where everything is. It wouldn't work in a pbp though, no chance of being able to update a map with every post after all.

The at-will, encounter and dailys, that's what drew me to 4e in the first place. It adds a nice bit of strategy to the game, the at-wills you can use as much as you like, and is basicly a normal attack with a little strategic twist to it, usually in the form of, push the enemy back a step or reposition an adjacent ally or something, because of flanking or what not. Whereas the encounter powers are used once per encounter (duh) and dailys (say it with me) once per day, so obviously the question becomes, do I use this power now, or do I save it for later.
  And everyone gets these powers, which rebalances things quite nicely, it's not just magic users who gets a ton of tricks anymore, now fighters can also do something besides attack, attack, attack. The bad thing about it, is that at higher levels you probably have too many choices.

Another good thing is the bloodied value, which is that at half health, an enemy changes somehow, either becoming stronger, weaker, or just different. Now doesn't that sound like christmas to a GM? The bad trade-off though is keeping track of it all. I myself tried one single session (didn't even finish it) with pen and paper, said @!#$ this s**t and found myself a free downloadable program to do it for me. I don't reckon it would be all that much different with any other version of the game though. And of course enemies also have powers, some of which rechargeable, others one-shots, to keep track of, but that's not really anything new, it's just that 4e does it more than 3e.
  It is more resource intensive but it also offers more choices, both to players and GMs. I never really experienced that 4e was geared more towards combat than the other versions, seems there are a lot of encounters in those as well, I don't even like combat, but out of the systems I've tried, 4e's combat was more fun, simply because you had more of a choice. Because in the other versions if you try to do something other than attack, you generally get penalized right out of the box with a -4 or -10 or a free attack from the enemy or what have you, and then you'll just end up failing. It doesn't reward us for trying to think out of the box, it penalizes us, and so it becomes a question of, why bother?

But I never had any problems implementing things that weren't combat related to my game, there's noone forcing you to center everything around combat, and you can't really hand out that kind of thing anyways because the actions of the players are what's supposed to shape the game and those can't be predicted unless you know your players, and sometimes not even then. And you don't really need rules for everything either, sure you can roll for everything from lifting a fork to wiping your ass, but it's not really adding much.
  One thing that's really really broken though is the fantasy economy. A magic sword that could basicly buy you a whole city for instance. But lots of things were broken in the other editions as well, just look at magic in 2e. So I really don't get why 4e has received so much hate, especially when it did away with the much hated grappling rules. Codgers being codgers and the whole buyer's loyalty thing I guess. So moving backwards in 5e doesn't sound at all appealing to me, though I've yet to check it out more than briefly so I'll reserve judgement.

In conclusion, 4e would never work as a pbp, and the other versions barely work, and if you don't buff your players then combat drags on for days on end anyways. Yet I did get burned out in my 4e campaign simply because I was trying to do too much, printing battle maps, power cards and flippable tokens, but I could just as easily have used any square grid paper and regular coins or something so that was more a matter of preference and pride. In the end, I spent more time prepping than I did actually playing and that's always a mistake.
  D&D as a whole, and any dice based RPGs I feel are overrated. And I really think that cards are the way forward, either replacing or supplementing dice. I'm following Mike Krahulik (aka Gabe)'s Thornwatch development with much interest, that to me seems like it could inject some much needed change to rping.
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Offline MysticMoon

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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2015, 08:04:06 AM »
You had to download a program just to keep track of details in combat and yet you don't understand what people are complaining about? My mind is officially boggled.

In reference to the original question, I barely touched 3rd and didn't even bother with 4th (I'd moved on to other systems by then, although I did buy some books to root through for ideas), so maybe I'm not qualified, but I'll throw in my :twocents: anyway: If you're only going to read one, and you're doing it to expand your system knowledge, I'd recommend 4th. I imagine you've come across many of 3rd's mechanics from exposure to any number of D20 games out there, so I don't know what you'd get by reading the actual release. While 4th was much-hated (deserved or not), they did try to do something new and innovative. So, bang for your buck, you'll probably get more out of trying to understand what they were trying to do with that. And, since I've heard 5th referred to as "the best bits of 4th with some familiar pieces of older editions" maybe it'll help if you ever check out that edition.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 08:10:32 AM by MysticMoon »
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Offline Gossamer

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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2015, 12:40:16 PM »
Your mind is easily boggled I suppose.

What I said is more descriptive to me than to 4e. Just as I wrote, I seriously doubt I would have had the patience to track all those stats by hand and using mental arithmetics, no matter the version. I'd rather use it to come up with flavor text and immersion than having to focus on the barebone mechanics, lest the battles turns into "orc 1 takes 5 damage". Now 4e may have more to track because there's more to do, but if you have enough patience to handle the other versions, there's really nothing to indicate that you wouldn't be able to handle that little extra load. If a good and free program exists to remove some of that burden though, why not use it. I was using my laptop for mood music and other things anyways.
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Offline MysticMoon

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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2015, 12:49:54 PM »
I think you missed the point... you go on about how maligned 4th is for its complexity, and then provide proof of that complexity. Most of your post does so, actually. If I had had any interest in checking it out, you did a great job of dissuading me.

Just like you make the broad statement about how 4th couldn't be used in PbP, but then neither could any other edition... completely ignoring the fact that Muro's games are all in 1st and run just fine.

But then, you are pretty skilled at muddying issues rather than seriously discussing them.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 12:51:37 PM by MysticMoon »
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Offline Gossamer

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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2015, 02:11:18 PM »
If 4e has been maligned for being too complex, then that's news to me. What I have read have all been about how 4e is supposedly more geared towards combat, it has been likened to an mmorpg, most of that critique is likely coming from people who make premature judgements without any actual firsthand knowledge. If anything the 3rd edition is the one most known for being complex as far as I have heard.

You cannot add more options without also adding more complexity, it stands to reason. What I did was to describe some of the elements that exist within 4e, if that alone dissuades you, you would be missing out but that's hardly my problem. Get your information from more than one source or better yet try it out for yourself and then decide, I'm just one person and my views are subjective.

No you must have read that wrong, I said the other versions did work in pbp, but that my personal opinion is that the combat drags on and that all the semi random, semi probabillity isn't very fun, so they work (but only barely), again according to me.

What I do, I like to think, is I try to look at more than just my own side of things. Which could potentially muddle the issue I admit, since I'm effectively discussing them both with myself at the same time, lifting up both pros and cons, instead of trying to just push my agenda without regards to facts. You seem to think I have disproved myself, but for me the issue was never about complexity. If we are to go by the assumption that the simplest system is the best though, then the 4th edition isn't it.

However, I would like to again point out the obvious and state that it's a matter of subjective taste. Yet I have read enough to know a bit about how such biases can come to form and a lot of it is based on buyer's loyalty a.k.a brand loyalty as I previously mentioned, so if you have spent a lot of money on just one edition of D&D, you are more likely to favor it over the others. And obviously the pink clouds of nostalgia are also likely culprits in forming such biases, just as bad experiences can do the opposite. As for me, I have only invested money in 4e, but I have invested a not too small amount of time in a few of the other editions as well here on this very site, and time being money, I feel I can confidently voice my opinions about them and the pros and cons I found therein. Without needing to claim that 4e is inherently better than the rest (although I prefer 4e's combat over the alternatives), yet no worse than any of the others either, which was my original point.
Unless you're specifically looking to use 4e in a pbp as found in these forums, in which case it's less than ideal. But it could potentially be converted, now that I think about it, in such a way that you do away with maps and miniatures, so if there's a will there's a way.
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Offline eldarbeast

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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2015, 12:18:51 AM »
Lady Wolf, and others,

2nd Ed is all about roleplaying. I have run several campaigns that have lasted more than three years.

Here in H-Town, I had thirteen folk show to attend my game on Sunday at Noon. After trying to assimilate everyone into one game, at the advice of some of the players, I placed the thirteen PC's into two groups - Hack'n'slashers and RP-ers, seven PC's in the former and six PC's in the latter.

The first group met at noon and played for about 2 and one half hours - the rest of the time spent bragging about who did what to whom in the last game and lasted LESS than two years because they ran out of beasts to slay (They were even exposed to the mightiest of creatures - the Gaz' Zee 'bo); the second group met at four PM and played until 8 PM, when the store closed and lasted nearly 7 years.

I definitely had more fun running the Roleplayers because of all the thought the PC's put into their game.

3rd Ed, 3.5, 4, Pathfinder and others all had some element missing from the gameplay as these edition's campaigns rarely lasted longer than two years.

eldar
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 01:06:28 AM by eldarbeast »
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Offline eldarbeast

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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2015, 12:41:39 AM »
Another thing, while running 2nd Ed, I never needed more than three books to run the games - DMG, PHB, and whatever module I was using at the time.

I never used a module as it was written as it was easy for the PC's to cheat and read up on the set piece ahead of time. As a matter of fact, I often inserted a different module into a cover that had nothing to do with the cover's title. Subterfuge at it's best.

I have never used a DM's screen - I roll my die in plain view of everyone. If I critically missed, the Players witnessed my failure and reveled in the glory of having seen the DM's attack come to nought. Likewise, when I rolled three Critical hits in a row against their forces, they recognized that even the enemy can have a better day then they...

 I use both a d20 critical hit and miss chart as I feel that rolling a '20' or a '1' has special meaning beyond merely doubling the hit's damage or registering a miss. As my game evolved, I reduced the Crit hit/miss chart to d10's and later d8's as my Players have aged (matching the DM) and aren't as patient as they once were.

We did develop House Rules over time - things the Players thought would add to the game's play. Some of these rules mimic things found in the Skills and Powers book, and later, the 3.5 Edition book. These were never set in stone as they evolved over the years. And, it only covers one page. Approximately 16 rules. And, there are rules that the Players absolutely hate.

I own over 300 pounds of lead/palladium miniatures that I have collected over the last couple of decades. And, I use them as I hate to argue of 'positions' in combat -if you didn't move Your PC's Minnie then this is where You *points!* are.

And diorama's from my modeling days. I have the Moathouse in storage with four levels scaled in 25mm.

And, my Players have always supported our hobby by providing additional rulebooks for me to peruse at my leisure. And, gifted me with much written material from alternate sources of D'n'D games such as White Dwarf magazine and Home grown D'n'D games.

eldar
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 12:52:45 AM by eldarbeast »
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Offline eldarbeast

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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2015, 01:00:32 AM »
Lastly, the later editions of Dungeons and Dragons are so complex to play, the DM (and many of the Players) have to use a laptop, notebook, or other electronic device to be able to research the rules to 'play' better.

This is anathema for having any kind of chance to having fun while playing what is essentially a very simple game to play. Especially as those Players who have their device operating during game play have to be continually reminded as to what is happening in the game because they are playing some other game.

In my game, all electronic devices are turned off for the duration of the game. Period.

eldar
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Offline Pariah

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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2015, 03:25:19 AM »
I love the fresh smell of edition warfare in the morning...

I already put in y vote for 4th, even though I'm not fond of it.  In that original post I described the mechanics as "MMORPG-like,"  a term which Goss apparently takes offense.  I feel, in the spirit of sharing why our personal way of doing things is the best way ever, that I should explain my choice of words that Goss, in a fit of rage, doesn't track me down and murderously brutalize me.  WotC, in making 4th, tried something other than their trademark roll 20 to hit then roll damage method of combat resolution.  I think that if it had been published as anything other than DnD it wouldn't have caused as much anger as it did, and probably would have done well enough for a smaller publisher to work on refining what worked and what didn't for a second edition.  Unfortunately, it was published under the DnD label, and had expectations to live up to that it just couldn't.

I, personally, liked what they tried to do but felt that it offered too many options to the players at both a character design level and a tactical level.  For example, in previous editions of DnD, if your fighter wanted to try and cut off someones hand (really bad example, I know, but I don't have my 4e book with me right now, so I can't come up with a better example) you'd make a basic attack roll at a penalty (which varied between GMs, and even the same GM will provide different penalties on different days depending on how he/she is feeling that day), where in 4e, there's a distinct "Hand Chopping-Off" ability.  On paper, having the rules written down for chopping off hands is nice, in practice that's one more distinct tactical choice I have to make every time I go to attack.  In 1-3.5e, I would only even think of hand chopping if the enemy was holding the MacGuffin and I really didn't want to fight him for it (though now I want to play a character that chops off the hands of his foes rather than kill them), in 4e that same ability is staring at me every time I go to attack, forcing me to weigh whether it is the proper tactical choice in this situation or not.  I know that I explained that really poorly, but I'm hoping you can understand what I meant...

And the next one is something that invokes almost as much ire as the edition wars, technological aides.  While a not insignificant fraction of our populace is made up of people that actually know how to use a slide rule, and some who may have been alive for the invention of the abacus, our ability to efficiently compute complex equations has been recently advanced by the invention of this glorious device known as the microprocessor.  This advancement has allowed us to fit computers with more processing power than NASA had available to them when they first put men on the Moon into our pockets.  Or a clip on the belt as the case may be.  In the US, two out of every three people are walking around with this thing that would have been decried as pure fantasy if Heinlein had ever written a story about it, and we're dismissing their use at the tabletop out of hand.  Rather than thinking about how to use phones, tablets, and laptops to help make games better, the average GM raises his nose up and sniffs snobbishly, instead preferring to use a device to resolve simple probabilities that was invented before the abacus.

And, yes, that's all rolling the dice is, a game of probabilities.  A fighter with an attack bonus of +5 has a 50% chance to hit someone with AC 15, and a 75% chance to hit someone with AC 10.  (This is ignoring one of my pet peeves with DnD, where Thor, with a +40 to hit when he throws Mjölner, has a 5% chance to miss the broad side of a barn (AC 1).)  we no longer need to rely on grossly simplistic increments of 5% chunks, nor on damage reduction that takes a flat number off the top of damage.  A suit of armor that protects you from 13/37ths of all damage is now trivially simple to crunch at the table with just the calculator that comes preloaded on a flip phone, let alone an honest to goodness smartphone.  As long as the options available to a player remain reasonably simple, the actual mechanics behind them can be as complex as you want.  Attack can be decided by your base to hit bonus, times the time of day, divided by pi, minus the opposing characters defense, plus the Dow-Jones industrial average, to the power of 13.  As long as what ever program you're using has been designed sanely and with a half way decent UI in mind, it should be no harder than rolling and counting the 6d6 worth of damage for your mage's fireball.

Eldar, I don't know what it is about you, but I cannot respond to you in a way that doesn't make me read over what I'd just written and realize that it comes of as horribly dickish.  I will try though, because you raise a couple points that probably need to be answered.

The H&S vs RP methodology of playing RPGs are different, however no particular style is inherently superior to another.  Just different.  I will admit (because the easiest way to 'discredit' my opinion is asking me how many games I've had that have lasted that long) that I've never had a game last longer than 18 months, but that has less to do with the games/players than it does with the fact that I can count on one hand the number of times I've stayed in one place for more than two years, while I need to take off my shoes to count the number of times I've moved.  Having run both RP heavy games and H&S heavy ones, I personally enjoyed the fact that I could kill off the H&Sers PCs a lot more easily, where the guy with twenty pages of backstory behind his character has a lot more emotional investment.  But, again, they're just different ways to enjoy a shared hobby.  Kind of like how some people like to watch football, while others prefer to play fantasy football.  They're both decently knowledgeable about the game, and likely cheer fervently for their favorite team, they just enjoy it in different ways.

In regards to books, despite the fact that I own a dozen splatbooks, I've never brought more than 3 books to the table either, and a lot of the time I only brought 2, the 3.5 PHB and the monster manual. Plus whatever notes I had on the adventure/campaign, so the implication that editions newer than 2nd somehow inherently require one to lug around of library of splatbooks, rulebooks, and setting books is false.

And, while I didn't cover electronics as thoroughly as I would have liked, I feel like I've covered enough for now.  The rest can wait for the next time I feel like drunkenly typing in CoC.  Though I can say that I've never had to research rules online so I could play better, though I have used the internet to help provide ideas for settings/adventures, but that's probably because I'm a morally bankrupt youth.

P
For the love of meat, shut up! No one wants to hear your emo character background! My hands are literally melting away, and I'm complaining less than you!
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Offline Gossamer

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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2015, 07:54:15 AM »
Uhm, whoopsie. You're not the only one who has used those words to describe 4e, Pariah, and this thread was ressed from the dead so I didn't actually read through the whole thing the second time around. I can see why it would seem extra brutal though if you thought my remark was directed at you personally, but I was -as is often the case- clueless about that fact, so sorry. I guess I have to wear the dog's head and own up for the words I used though, but there are always exceptions to everything. If you've tried it for yourself then your opinion is soundly based and I have nothing negative to say about that. No brutal murderizing is planned at this point in time. ;)

-

As for 2E, I never found it all that simple, especially the magic and THAC0. I was the only one to use a laptop and that was basicly just like having an interactive GM screen, I wouldn't have allowed a player to fiddle with anything, and funnily enough I had to resort to books when I looked something up. Yet there are some ways to simplify most things in 4e to the point where anyone can remember it, and it has to do with boiling everything down to modifiers, positive and negative, but that gets kind of dull.
  I think the way we ourselves shape the systems, is the biggest salvation for them, since they all have flaws and in need of some T&A, but that's the fun part really.

In this day and age, people don't have as much time on their hands as they used to, everyone is stressed and constantly looking at their phones etc.
  I envy those who grew up playing, because what better setting than a school exists to keep people together for a long time, and at the same time offer enough free time to pursue such a hobby. But today kids have so many activities planned into their weeks that they don't even know how to handle boredom, and all these ipads and iphone aren't doing much to get them to socialize either. And obviously it's even harder for an adult to find/create a game, at least over here where football aka soccer is religion and fewer and fewer grow up reading books.
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Offline axlerowes

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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2015, 11:36:00 AM »
Can the goal of a roleplaying system be agreed upon?  How might the goals of a system written for D&D vary for system written for a Star Wars, Battletech or Vampire setting?  That might help the discussion to take a more focused approach.

Offline Aramax

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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2015, 12:58:43 PM »
In general 4th ed sucks. I ran it all the way through 27th level. that being said there are some excellant things you can glean from it.The player books can be mined for a myrid amount of special abilities,The one thing I took away from 4th was the concept of a character having 4-5 at will attacks ecpecially true od sword wielders.I found DMG 1 &2 amazing
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Offline Gossamer

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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2015, 03:58:29 PM »
...You ran it all the way to 27th level, yet it sucks? How long did that take you? Did it suck all the way through or was it just the Epic tier?
If it was the latter, I would suggest this blog;

http://slyflourish.com/archive.html

Which offers a few good pointers on how to fix Epic tier encounters and just battle in general. If it was the former, I kinda wonder why you persisted in using a system that you thought sucked.
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Offline eldarbeast

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Re: Suggestions - D&D 3.5 vs D&D 4
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2015, 05:42:32 PM »
Gossamer,

It could be that 'Maxx ran the 4e game system because his Players wanted him to run it.

I know that his written words may sometimes sound childish but, 'Maxx is an accomplished DM recognized by the games he has run at East Coast Cons, and the Players that have been involved in his long running game. I entered the fray in June, 1991, and played with him and others for the next three years. 'Maxx stretched our minds in ways never thought of by any others.

Pariah,

I have also moved around a bit, eight States and nine Countries since 1974 at last count. I prefer 2nd Ed system due to its playability by the Players and DM and it's extensive background material. I have spent more than $2000.00 on game material, much of it at half cost. Not counting the miniatures that I have collected.

I do play in other game systems (currently involved with the 'new' Basic D&D game) when time allows. This allows me to notice that the later systems lack the longevity of the older systems - too much time spent on modding one's PC to demi-power strength and not enough time in actual character development.

When I ask other D&D game system Players (anything after 2nd Ed) about their PC's backgrounds, they often reply, "Why bother to develop a PC's background? We're only going to be around for two years at most."

I am rough as Cob on my Players, most have died at least once, several more than once due to their PC's nature. Magic can be plentiful, if one has enough gold or luck. Fighting higher level Undead has its dangers as well - energy drains removing levels ~ sometimes more difficult to live with than mere death.

As far as electronic devices being used during game play - imo, they are a pariah that needs to be avoided at all costs.

eldar

PS - it's 'eldar' ~ with a little 'e'

Thanks
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 06:08:34 PM by eldarbeast »
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