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Offline sniperspy

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« on: August 05, 2003, 09:11:29 PM »
Ok, this will probably sound really stupid, but I've been toying with this idea for some time now.

What if a character could walk in and out of his and other's dreams? He could change what he wanted in them, then step out and move on to the next person. Obviously, you could alter someones dreams that you hated into nightmares, or your friend's dreams into pleasant displays of color and pictures.

Also, a dream could be modified to a point where it appears an omen, and make the dreamer think he needs to do something to fulfill their dreams.

Now here are the things I am having a bit of trouble on:

1.) If the person dies in the dream, what happens to him/her in real life? Does he die or is he transported out of the dream back into his own.
(on a side note, the brain won't allow you to die in a dream, but what if the dreamwalker kills you. Obviously the brain knows not what the dreamwalker will do, so what happens to the dreamer there?)

2.) The person obviously has to change the factors of the dream himself, but how powerful would he be? Could he change things by wanting the to happen, or would he have to personally influence various factors of the dream to get the desired affect he wants?

3.) Getting into a dream is easy enough (he just climbs into the dream-cloud of the sleeping person, but how does he get out? Thinking himself out might work, but that limits his powers in the dream itself, so a different method would be better.

Any other aspects I havn't thought of yet, so feel free to add anything you want.
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Offline CaptainPenguin

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« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2003, 09:55:54 PM »
I don't think that sounds stupid at all! Imagine all the cool adventures one could have in the Dream World!
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Offline Ylorea

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« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2003, 01:48:32 AM »
Hello SniperSPY,

I imediatly see a use for this. It sounds to me like a illusion spell, cast on someone who is sleeping.

I think the questions you raise are very valid, but I would say (from a 3rd edition D&D back-ground) it all depends on the level of the spell you are using.

A first level spell would never allow you to realy hurt a person. I think at first level you could only see what is going on.
Around level three you could alter the dream to make it seem like an omen, but not realy hurt a person.
Around level five you could start hurting people, but not kill them.
Around level seven you could seriously hurt people, but only at level nine could you kill people... But that is just by comparing with some necro spells that I sort of remember from the top of my head.

(realize in 3rd edition D&D max spell level is nine)

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Offline MoonHunter

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MoonHunter says...
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2003, 02:58:28 AM »
Why reinvent the wheel.  There are two games centering on this premise. One is still in print.  The better one of the two is

SHATTERED DREAMS
Company: Apex Publications Inc (USA)
Authors: Matthew D. Grau, Christopher Dorn, Timothy R. Erickson and Lance P. Johnstone
First publication: 1994
Genre: Horror in the dream world

Theme: It is when we sleep that we are most vulnerable. It is when we dream that they come. The Nightmares that creep into our minds when our souls are bared and corrupt our beings. The Nightmares.
They are a threat as timeless as life itself. They are the beings that live on the other side of sleep. They are the Nightmares.
There is hope. There are people who can walk dreams. The Dreamwalkers have the power to stop them. Only the Dreamwalkers know.


The Movie DreamScape 1984 is a good source material for a dream game.

The Sandman comic is a great source of dream information.

In Nomine has a dream suppliment that would work well for you.

The big decisions you have to make should not be based on us, but upon the way you want to define your dream world.
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Offline sniperspy

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« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2003, 11:15:56 AM »
Yes, I know, but the three issues I raised are points I am stuck on, and can't think of ideas to solve the problems I am having.
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Offline strom

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« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2003, 11:26:49 AM »
1) Perhaps, if the victim dies by the hand of the dreamwalker, there is a chance he slips into a coma. A successful save verse this leaves the victim dazed for the rest of the day; this gives the victim negatives for initiative rolls and actions.

2) Lets say that  the dreamwalker can influence the dreams of a character with the same willpower/endurance, and for those with a lesser score in this attribute, he can totally manipulate. Victims with a higher score cannot be affected by his dream manipulation.

3) Maybe he must exit at the same place he entered.
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« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2003, 01:04:28 PM »
Thank You strom! I do have 1 more question though. Suppoase the victem woke up while the dreamwalker was still in the dream? My guess is this can only happen if the victem has a higher endurance/willpower as the dreamwalker, and then the dreamwalker has to perform the saving roll for the same affects as described in strom's first point.

Offline sniperspy

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« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2003, 01:05:21 PM »
Sorry, I forgot to log in but the above post is mine.
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Offline strom

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« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2003, 03:25:15 PM »
What if the dreamwalker becomes trapped in the mind of the victim, when he wakes. It's powers over the mind will have no effect while the character is awake, but it will simply have to wait for the victim to fall back asleep.

Perhaps this is where dreamwalkers dwell- within our subconscious. They simply prey on the weak; eating away a character's willpower/endurance points until they reach 0. Every night the dreamwalker uses a character's dreams as ways to engulf them in a fantasy, and every successful attempt gains the spirit a point; a defeated attempt to feed drops the dreamwalker's own health. When a dreamwalker's health reaches 0, it is dead.

Once the victim's nourishment is gone (will/end), and not before, it is able to move on to the next potential victim. Also, a defeated character with no willpower/ endurance, becomes hosted and controlled by the dreamwalker in an unconscious state, until it moves on to another potential victim.

A dreamwalker moves from a defeated victim to a new host by using the current loser to touch another character. It has no idea what type of opponent he is attacking until it gets inside a potential victim.

Dreamwalkers that enter a character with higher score totals are not only powerless against them, but they cannot even leave until the character dies and, even then, the dead character needs to be touched by another potential victim.

Thanks for the idea; I really like how it turned out.
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Offline Strolen

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Re: Dream Walkers
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2003, 08:31:27 PM »
I think I will give a different perspective. (I love the idea of the dreamwalker trapped when the person wakes up.)

Quote from: "sniperspy"

1.) If the person dies in the dream, what happens to him/her in real life? Does he die or is he transported out of the dream back into his own.
(on a side note, the brain won't allow you to die in a dream, but what if the dreamwalker kills you. Obviously the brain knows not what the dreamwalker will do, so what happens to the dreamer there?)


Dying in a dream would be a fairly significant psychological event, especially at the hands of a dreamweaver. The experience of the event should bleed over into reality for the dreamer by way of some kind of phobia or psychosis. Give them an insanity for each time they die in their dream. It can be completely random (the subconscience remembers things we don't recall normally which could cause any insanity) or make one up that fits the way the person died in their dream.

Quote from: "sniperspy"

2.) The person obviously has to change the factors of the dream himself, but how powerful would he be? Could he change things by wanting the to happen, or would he have to personally influence various factors of the dream to get the desired affect he wants?


Depends on the power of the dreamweaver. The talented and experienced ones can manipulate others dream at a thought. Those that are rookies can maybe only visit and view the dream and possibly effect things by physically having to move them.

Quote from: "sniperspy"

3.) Getting into a dream is easy enough (he just climbs into the dream-cloud of the sleeping person, but how does he get out? Thinking himself out might work, but that limits his powers in the dream itself, so a different method would be better.


Is getting into a dream that easy? I would think getting into the dream should be a very delicate thing. After all, you are invading somebody and must be gentle and not startle them out of sleep by a sudden jar of entering their dreams. It should require skill to even get that far and only the most experience should be able to slip in...depending on the person (and their condition ie drunk) they are invading of course.

Getting out would have to be just as delicate a maneuver. I don't see the dreamweavers as without a home shell to return to although the slipping from person to person would be sort of cool too. I love the idea that once the person awakes they are trapped there until they sleep again. (be a cool item to allow people to enter dreams with those drawbacks) The dreamweaver would have to be skilled in feeling when the person is stirring so they are able to escape. Escaping should be the same as entering. Some kind of skill and you are in and out.

Cool idea Sniper, there are some examples and that game Moonhunter mentioned sounds interesting, but great idea for an addition. I would use the insanity thing and have a group of dreamweavers attacking a kings dreams and trying to kill him. All the attempts are making the king stronger at controlling his dreams but he has been killed a couple times...and keeps getting crazier and crazier.

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Offline MoonHunter

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My take
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2003, 03:51:54 AM »
1.) If the person dies in the dream, what happens to him/her in real life?
They die. Their body might hang on for a while, but they die as their mind/ soul are gone.  If you fall in a dream and don't wake up before you hit, you allegedly die. Same process.  

2.) The person obviously has to change the factors of the dream himself, but how powerful would he be?
The Dream Walker can control themselves.  They might be able to alter the world around them, but only in ways that match the theme of the dream.  So if the dream is set in a school, you might be able to summon up a binder, some paper, and some such.  It would require a use of will and perhaps some skill to do such.

3.) Getting into a dream is easy enough (he just climbs into the dream-cloud of the sleeping person), but how does he get out?
They sort of go sideways and pop out. Another act of will or dream skill.  The dreamer can eject them anytime they want, if they jarr the dream's flow too much.  If the dreamer wants to keep them in there, they might set an "exit" condition, that anyone must meet before they can go sideways and pop out.  

4) Where are the dreams?  An astreal realm?  What about other things that waunder through that space?

5) All of these questions are impacted by the mechanism of dream walking.  Is it magik? A spell or potion or item? Is it a skill requiring concentation?  Do you have to go to sleep under a sleeping willow or some other magikal place?  Is it a technical piece?
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Offline Dimensification

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You people are stupid...
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2003, 04:47:27 AM »
Quote
1.) If the person dies in the dream, what happens to him/her in real life? Does he die or is he transported out of the dream back into his own.
(on a side note, the brain won't allow you to die in a dream, but what if the dreamwalker kills you. Obviously the brain knows not what the dreamwalker will do, so what happens to the dreamer there?)


The person in the dream state can not die while in a dream. Even if  their bodies are torn to pieces, they will not die, for their brain can easily accept it as an illusion, as most people's minds would take miraculous things in the dream world as such, which is why most of us are able to tell we are dreaming. The depth of the sleep of the dreamer would be an effect as well. A deep sleep would cause the mind to not take into physical effect anything happening in the dream, as it would be just as random as thoughts. Light sleeping, on the other hand, is what causes the body to be integrated with the dreaming, as it is taken in as reality by our sub-concsious mind. In that state, we are easily startled, be it by death, or by miracle, or just by anything. The mind will either know it as a mere illusion, or the mind will wake when the present of death is presented. The thoughts of the mind are random, and it doesn't even know the next thoughts it's going to think, since the mind words with very minimal and slight electric pulses(The source of Delta Waves) and these pulses are quite randomized. The mind will never cause the body to go through pain, for it will be startled. The dreamer is not effected by their dreams. The only physical acts taking place would be sweating, talking, groaning, twitching, sexual activities, and of course, memories.  In no ones memories would they have died, and when people relive traumatic events their bodies do not come out effected in any serious way.
Conclusion: It is impossible to die in a dream.

Quote
2.) The person obviously has to change the factors of the dream himself, but how powerful would he be? Could he change things by wanting the to happen, or would he have to personally influence various factors of the dream to get the desired affect he wants?


This  is the same principles as psyche manipulation, or mind control. It can be done, but is very hard while a person is in the concsious state, so while they are in the sub-conscious state it is actually quite easy. If the person can infect the dreamers mind then they can very well, with their own thoughts, effect the randomized patterns that the dream is taking on. Actual items, as Strolen put, wouldn't be the basis. It would be moreso, changing the tint and hue of the scene, and changing shapes, at first. Just putting images into the persons mind. Then, the mind would take in this, and would come up with a whole new pattern of dream thought, coming from memories of the images or colors presented. To actually continually keep the image presented without the mind straying back into it's dreaming nature, might be a bit more difficult. Coming with actual desired effects would be moreso simple than telepathy, but not easy in the least.

Quote
3.) Getting into a dream is easy enough (he just climbs into the dream-cloud of the sleeping person, but how does he get out? Thinking himself out might work, but that limits his powers in the dream itself, so a different method would be better.


Well, actually, climbing into the dream wouldn't just be "climbing." It's telepathically linking with someone, which takes concentration, and a short distance. To do it while in their sleep might be hard, because the dream state is difficult to read, as would take an entire class of training to come up with this sort of concentration. Getting out of the dream is of course the easy part. All you need do is wake yourself from your meditation. Since when in our dreams we can't truly control all aspects, dream walking wouldn't be done in ones dreams, but yet in a subdued conscious state. Getting in would be more difficult, getting out would be as easy as snapping your fingers.

Quote
Thank You strom! I do have 1 more question though. Suppoase the victem woke up while the dreamwalker was still in the dream? My guess is this can only happen if the victem has a higher endurance/willpower as the dreamwalker, and then the dreamwalker has to perform the saving roll for the same affects as described in strom's first point.


No trapping would be occured. If the dreamer were startled while in the dream, or just came to wake up, the dream walker would know, and would not be trapped in the dream thoughts. They would be left with blank thoughts, and they would know, and could come out of their meditation. The dream walker would only still linger in the dreamer's mind if the dream walker had the ability to go into the mind of conscious people. The effect would be very different though, and it would be very noticable. Patterned thought and random thought are always noticable.

Quote
4) Where are the dreams? An astreal realm? What about other things that waunder through that space?


To my knowledge there are four planes of existence, which all spawn off of each other and are directly linked and bleed into one another, being one plane.
Astral Plane. Spiritual Plane. Mental Plane. Physical Plane.
The emotional plane is part of the physical plane, the deep emotional plane is part of the astral and sometimes spiritual plane, they aren't the same but they are very alike.
Astral Plane: The stars, gravity, the way things pull against everything else and the way things are decided in a huge pattern. Karma, fate, so be it, these things exist here.
Spiritual Plane: Not emotion, but moreso than that, the aura of a person. The ever changing and always moving plane of guiding power.
Physical Plane: Material, touch, feel, if you can see it, or smell it, it's here.
Mental Plane: The delta waves of people, the minds of people all stretching throughout forever. They are stronger at close, moreso dissipated at length, and this is where dreams lie.
The mind works on tiny electrical pulses which in turn create delta waves which can be read by people, many people actually, which is what gives up weird feelings sometimes, it's either the mental or astral plane that does  that. Some people can actually control other peoples minds using this plane, as would be the simple thing of "Dream walking."

Quote
5) All of these questions are impacted by the mechanism of dream walking. Is it magik? A spell or potion or item? Is it a skill requiring concentation? Do you have to go to sleep under a sleeping willow or some other magikal place? Is it a technical piece?


As I've explained before, with the rest of my talk before. I will answer these questions one by one in a simple matter.

Quote
Is it magik?


1: Please don't say Magik it's not right. No matter what the wiccans say, since they don't want to be grouped with magicians, it's not right. It's Magic. Not Magick, no magik, it's magic, derived from the word "Mage" which means "User of magic" and that is plural of "Magi" which they come from the word "Magus" meaning "bad" which is what all of the old time wizards were called. Magus, which is plural, magi. Wizards were all deemed to be bad, since magic in itself was bad.

2: No. It's not. That's an entirely different plane.

Quote
A spell or potion or item?


In basics no it's not, but a subduing potion or an item that brings the dream walker faith and hope, overall confidence, might help it along.  Magical items that would effect the dream walker the same way a potion would might do  the same. It's all about concentration.

Quote
Is it a skill requiring concentation?


Yes.

Quote
Do you have to go to sleep under a sleeping willow or some other magikal place?


No, it's got nothing to do with magic. Although, a secluded place, away from interference of other peoples minds would be helpful.

Quote
Is it a technical piece?


What exactly do you mean by that? Could you reiterate? (My only question.)
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Offline Ria Hawk

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« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2003, 07:52:23 AM »
Probably, do you need a special peice of machinery to do it.
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Offline sniperspy

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« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2003, 01:09:59 PM »
Ok, first things first:

Quote
You people are stupid...


Dimense, I think I speak for everyone when I say shut up and go back to whatever hole you crawled into this world from.

Now for my arguements:

Quote
The person in the dream state can not die while in a dream. Even if their bodies are torn to pieces, they will not die, for their brain can easily accept it as an illusion, as most people's minds would take miraculous things in the dream world as such, which is why most of us are able to tell we are dreaming. The depth of the sleep of the dreamer would be an effect as well. A deep sleep would cause the mind to not take into physical effect anything happening in the dream, as it would be just as random as thoughts. Light sleeping, on the other hand, is what causes the body to be integrated with the dreaming, as it is taken in as reality by our sub-concsious mind. In that state, we are easily startled, be it by death, or by miracle, or just by anything. The mind will either know it as a mere illusion, or the mind will wake when the present of death is presented. The thoughts of the mind are random, and it doesn't even know the next thoughts it's going to think, since the mind words with very minimal and slight electric pulses(The source of Delta Waves) and these pulses are quite randomized. The mind will never cause the body to go through pain, for it will be startled. The dreamer is not effected by their dreams. The only physical acts taking place would be sweating, talking, groaning, twitching, sexual activities, and of course, memories. In no ones memories would they have died, and when people relive traumatic events their bodies do not come out effected in any serious way.
Conclusion: It is impossible to die in a dream.


The problem with that logic Dimense, is that while a person cannot die in his/her dreams, because the mind senses it will happen and pulls you out of the dream before it does, there is more than one conciousness in the mind with a dreamwalker.  The victim's mind cannot tell what the dreamwalker is doing, will do, or even has done before, and therefore cannot know the dreamer is going to die until it happens. No warning means no action, and the dreamer dies. Now, the body has no physically died, but the mind has, and the body cannot function without the mind.

Oh, and by the way, Lucient dreams, the kind where you realize you are dreaming within the dream, are incredibally rare. You do not know you are dreaming while you are dreaming. I think you've watched too many cartoons.

Quote
Well, actually, climbing into the dream wouldn't just be "climbing." It's telepathically linking with someone, which takes concentration, and a short distance. To do it while in their sleep might be hard, because the dream state is difficult to read, as would take an entire class of training to come up with this sort of concentration. Getting out of the dream is of course the easy part. All you need do is wake yourself from your meditation. Since when in our dreams we can't truly control all aspects, dream walking wouldn't be done in ones dreams, but yet in a subdued conscious state. Getting in would be more difficult, getting out would be as easy as snapping your fingers.


See, the problem with dreamwalking is, you don't just telepathically link with someone. Dreams are far more complicated than a mere communication link, and you actually have to enter their subconcious instead of just connect to and read it. Entering would be easy, because you can enter in any part of the dream, you just have to get in somewhere. If you appear right in front of the person, like you said Dimense, the brain handles miracles and phenomenon(sp?) easily in dreams, as it is random anyways, so the person takes it as part of the dream. Getting out is harder. You can't just leave whenever you want, because then the shock may kill the dreamer, and that ruins all the hard work you did to manipulate his dreams in the first place. Also, if every place is an exit, you would fall out of the dream after the first step.
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Offline CaptainPenguin

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« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2003, 03:12:14 PM »
Now, now. Chill out, Dimense. Chill out, Snipes.
Dimense: You are not always right. Just because you THINK you know everything, doesn't mean you have a right to call others stupid when they don't see it the same way as you.
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Offline Dimensification

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Okay: So I shouldn't have said that.
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2003, 08:55:09 PM »
The mind of the dream is one of everturning chaos, if you would have read what I had wrote. Say, the dreamwalker slices the dreamer's head off. The form of the dreamer is not always himself, but then, he could be a head, or, his view would change on the subject and he would see his corpse, and the killer. Many different things could happen, but as I thoroughly explained, it is not possible for the dreamer to go through such a traumatic shock while in a dream that their body ceases to function.

On the second part, yes, I explained that. I did. You are right.
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Offline sniperspy

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Re: Okay: So I shouldn't have said that.
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2003, 09:04:16 PM »
Quote from: "Dimensification"
The mind of the dream is one of everturning chaos, if you would have read what I had wrote. Say, the dreamwalker slices the dreamer's head off. The form of the dreamer is not always himself, but then, he could be a head, or, his view would change on the subject and he would see his corpse, and the killer. Many different things could happen, but as I thoroughly explained, it is not possible for the dreamer to go through such a traumatic shock while in a dream that their body ceases to function.


Dimense you are absolutly right. The body will not cease to function. However, the form you take in your dreams is basically your mind's body. If it is killed, your mind dies, and the body is merely a carrier for the mind. In short dieing in a dream is a truer death than dieing in the body, as your mind, your true being and self is killed directly.
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Offline Dimensification

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« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2003, 09:11:58 PM »
You aren't understanding the fundamentals. The dream form can not die, no matter what. You can rip up the dreamer while in their dreams into a thousand pieces and the mind will not take it as death. The dreamers viewpoint is never as themselves, for they could just be viewing things. You can't kill a dreamer, for a dreamer doesn't truly exist in their dreams. The most you can do is subject them to imagery.
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Offline sniperspy

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« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2003, 09:16:16 PM »
Dreams are a bit different than day-dreams, and they can be real enough to kill, especially when under the influence of a dreamwalker.
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Offline Dimensification

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« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2003, 09:35:58 PM »
If a dreamwalker is influencing someone that much, they are't dreamwalking anymore, they are controlling their mind. The mind usually startles at this, so they wouldn't be dreamwalkers, they would be intense psychics, with the power to kill people at will. Dreams can't do it, I'm serious, I've explained this all very thoroughly.
Once my friend had a dream that a demon ripped him up into pieces, and was tearing out his guts, and he was still there. We all have dreams that we die, and even if it were to be unexpected, the mind just wouldn't stop because it randomly imagined dying, because that's all that dreams are are just random imaginations.
Even in the truest truths, the mind would know. If we as our conscious dream and we don't know what's going to happen next, but our subconcsious does, then our subconscious would truly know the thoughts of the dreamwalker, as our subconscious picks up the thoughts of everyone, it's just bringing those thoughts into our conscious mind and reading them is difficult, and that is how we become psychic. It's all on the general premesis.
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Offline CaptainPenguin

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« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2003, 09:37:46 PM »
Thank you for reconciling and producing some very good ideas, to boot.
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« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2003, 10:08:31 PM »
But your friend was still alive while the demon ripped apert his body. The mind will not let you die in a dream, but it will let you survive things that would kill the strongest of humans, as it is not real. However, to die in a dream, to actually die in the dream, is killing the mind and that is the death of man.
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Offline Adel

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« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2003, 10:39:41 PM »
first you really must set some boundaries... who are these dream walkers? are they a group of people just born with the gift or are they a selct group. second who says they have to kill at all?  you could make a really interestin history on how these dream walkers were the ones that came to the Native Americans in their  dream quests or these people could be the the protectors of dreams the people who have the responsibility to battle the nightmares it could even be made where the nightmares themselves  where an ancient race of demons that come to their victims at their most vulnerable state in order to take control of the victim causing that person to lose there sanity.  It could even be brought to the piont of explaining  the voices in ones head  these are merely demons trapped inside ones own mind quietly gnawing away at the persons sanity until they are no longer present in their own minds.
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Offline strom

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« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2003, 12:23:09 AM »
Thank you Adel.

What if the dreamwalker merely dwells within people. When a character is inhabited by a dreamwalker, his subconscious is affected by the will of it. And, depending on the type of dreamwalker it is, this could lead to dreams of premonition, fantasy, and horror.

A dreamwalker entering the subconscious of a character already hosted by one, leads to a battle among them for control and dominance; they fight until one surrenders (leaves), but mostly to the death.

I do love the action of causing the victim to lose his sanity. This would be the effect, and the cause would be from a dreamwalker feeding upon him.

I like the ideas of characters ceasing to exist also. I must say, though, that instead of arguing about who is right, lets keep the conversation to how you will use this brilliant opponent. The more we all try to be right, the more we will lose our focus.

And, by the way, if we lose focus, we will no longer be part of one of the greatest websites, because we will lose interest, fall apart and become less than ordinary. Now that should be a sin none wants to commit.
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« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2003, 03:28:31 AM »
Good points Strom. There is no correct answer to this so arguing is not getting anywhere. Both sides of it are excellent aways to approach the same argument and since we playing a fantasy game, which is made up anyway, the dreamwalker only has to fit the setting and/or style that the game is being played in.

If two dreamwalkers do have a fight inside somebody's dream (cool thought by the way!) that may be even more traumatic that simply being killed in the dream, especially if they are two powerful dreamwalkers.

I think that can be one of the few ways a person can die, when two dreamwalkers battle in their dream. The power that the two wield could destroy the persons mind and make them a vegetable or something.

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