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Author Topic: Naturalist Archetype society VS Technical Archetype society  (Read 2841 times)

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Offline young0ne2

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Naturalist Archetype society VS Technical Archetype society
« on: February 14, 2013, 04:50:35 PM »
So I got a buddy who wants to put together a campaign, at this moment its more DnD 3.5 Focused, and he wants to make the world split between a Naturalist Archetype Society and a Technical Archetype Society.

The basics are as follows: The world is only a few 1000years old and Humanoids have developed in the 2 said Archetypes (society aspects/types, like Agricultural, Combative, Mercantile, Etc., are more characteristics of the individual cities in these Archetypes.
EX: an Agricultural based society in the Technical Archetypes would have steam-punk-esk Farming equipment/tools, where one in the Naturalist Archetypes would just use homemade tools and the labor of its people and animals)

Getting the different Cities and villages put together for these 2 Archetypes isn’t too difficult, the major population points are going to have OBVIOUSE Architecture exemplifying each archetypes culture, beliefs, History, Etc.
The Issue he feels he needs help with is putting Availability on classes to the archetypes.
FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS POST IM GOINGTO JUST USE 3.5/D20 CLASSES
(DnD, Warcraft, Eberron, Forgotten Realms, Etc.)
(Mainly because that’s all I can think of here at work) But I want to know what you think we should use or not use, whether it be class, system, RPG, or whatever!

SO, for the classes that we’ve done, here is what we got
Technological               Either                     Naturalist

Knight                        Fighter/Warrior          Barbarian
*Paladin*                      Cleric                      Druid
 Alchemist                       Bard                      Shaman
*Wizard*                     Sorcerer                   *WuJen*
*Ninja*                        Rouge/Thief                 ---------
*Swashbuckler*        *Favored Soul*         *Samurai*
*Artificer*                      *Tinker*                   ----------
Rifleman                        ---------                      Ranger
-----------                       *Archivist*                 Mystic
-----------                      ------------                  shugenja

                                   ?*Monk*?

Classes Marked with the (*) are ones we’re unsure, whether it be because of the section we put it in, or because of it actually being around.
(EX: Their might not be Paladins per-say, it would be something that would be kind of like a sub-class, so a technologic fighter, would be a paladin, but an Naturalist couldn’t. OR maybe their aren’t Paladins, maybe there is something else.)
Monks are a hard choice. We’re not sure where to put them at all. In THEORY they could go both ways.
Wizards we’re unsure of because I think it would depend on the type of mage? Not sure yet.
This is what we have so far. Looking for suggestions, opinions, Ideas, any helpful feedback about anything involved herewould be greatly appreciated.
Thank you!!!

Offline Shadoweagle

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Re: Naturalist Archetype society VS Technical Archetype society
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2013, 07:49:29 PM »
Neato. So you're kind of looking for plausible classes and such for Technological and Naturalist type lifestyles, yes?

Well, as for Spellcasters and such, you  could create classes for each type, based on where they derive their magic.
So for example, you may have a Wizard class which could use a more 'scientific' process for their spellcraft; using patterns and correctly pronunciated words and such for their magic; a heavily 'learned' based magic, thus putting them in the Technological column. Obviously they would require intelligence for this.
And their Naturalist counterpart could be a Witch, who derives their magic more from the elements or spirits of the world. They allow themselves to be a conduit through which elemental spirits are able to touch the world, thus keeping in touch with their natural roots. Witches don't need to be evil, either; they could be well respected as wise men and women from their respective areas. Rather than use intellect for their magic, they would be far more invested into wisdom, as it takes a deep understanding of the world around them to be able to commune with these spirits.

Other examples of counterparts which you already sort of have, can be Knights and Barbarians:
Knights rely on technology; they use advanced smithing techniques to create quality iron and steel to create defensive and offensive tools, and they rely heavily on these superior armaments to get the edge in battle.
Barbarians on the other hand worry less about creating a barrier of metal between them and their opponents. They wear only hardened hides, and would depend much more on building up their own thick, calloused skin and rely more on their bodies than their equipments. While they may have iron weapons, they would be just as happy with a stone axe, because they know their strength can make up for the difference in gear.

Again, you could have a Druid counterpart for the Technological side: An Animal Tamer.
A Druid would be one with the life around them; able to commune to wild animals and get them to aid him in his duties. He would know all about natural remedies, poultices and herbs and is deep in touch with the 'spirit' of the animals.
A Tamer would rely on modern domestication and training techniques to tame formerly wild animals and get them to do their bidding. While they would also know about herbs and such, they would work from a 'chemistry' point of view, creating medicines and salves which could be used to heal wounds and strengthen himself and allies; as well as poison.
Paladins vs. Occultists
Medics vs. Clerics

A bard could be neutral territory and accepted by both sides, as music can be both science and art, and is appreciated across all sides.
Rogues/thieves can be neutral territory because opportunity exists everwhere when you are not bound by the laws of the people.

Anyway. That's all i've got at the moment.
I would be rooting for the Naturalists :p
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Offline Dozus

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Re: Naturalist Archetype society VS Technical Archetype society
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2013, 09:56:35 PM »
Nice idea for the setting. I like all of Shadoweagle's ideas, naturally.  :D But just looking at your list of unsurities, here are my thoughts:

Paladin - A technological steampunk mecha-warrior. His steed is an automaton and his armor is fitted with gears and a small engine. A machine in his armor produces his auras, and his holy symbol is a clockwork device that repels undead.

Wizard - Like SE, I can see this going either way. But given 3.5's approach to wizards as magicians who use written knowledge rather than inherent abilities, I would go technological. The magic itself could be scientific - I see a staff with vacuum tubes and vials, not unlike an alchemist but with more an emphasis on the usage of energy for spells.

WuJen - Again, based on 3.5 setting, a technological magic user, but with more eastern flavor. Alternatively, this could be a wild hedge-wizard who relies solely on the elements. So maybe both.

Ninja - A technological sneak who uses chemistry and mechanics to make himself disappear.

Swashbuckler - Going naturalist, a boastful warrior like Beowulf but who relies on finesse. Arm with some more primitive weapon than a rapier (a handaxe or even a short spear would play the part) and they can sail a longship as an wandering warrior.

Favored Soul - Innate and untrained says naturalist to me.

Samurai - I'm seeing a variation of the samurai that uses wooden armor plates and armed with macuahuitls. They keep the dedication to honor you'd expect, but don't rely on steel.

Artificer - Depending on how developed your industrial society is, this would be the automaton-repairing folk. But if they're not that far, I might suggest naturalist: they scavenge material they find to create wondrous items, relying more on ingenuity than technology.

Archivist - A naturalist shaman who knots her spells on khipu wrapped in coils around her body rather than in the wizard's scrolls and books. Her knowledge comes from experience, stories of ancestors, generations-old khipu entrusted to her, and strange dreams from the gods she must interpret.

Monk - Instinct says naturalist, but it's also plausible to imagine a character that withdraws from the noisy industry of a technological society to contemplate and develop their mystical body.
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Offline young0ne2

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Re: Naturalist Archetype society VS Technical Archetype society
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2013, 10:52:26 AM »
NICE input, thank you for helping!

I LOVE your ideas and its helping out the sorting out of the classes.
"Paladin - A technological steampunk mecha-warrior. His steed is an automaton and his armor is fitted with gears and a small engine. A machine in his armor produces his auras, and his holy symbol is a clockwork device that repels undead."

See this is what i was imagining, though my buddy was looking to have the Paladin's almost like the Technological cities police force, i think he was going off of the LG alignment  there. Was almost looking at making them Templar's, though one could argue its the same thing, just with a fancier name.

i have more feed back but i got to get ready for work, i'll reply later.
again. THANK YOU so much!

Offline Shadoweagle

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Re: Naturalist Archetype society VS Technical Archetype society
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2013, 05:24:45 PM »
That's what we're here for :)

Also, welcome to Strolen's Citadel!
Lazarus Lightward, Elite Diabolist of the Brotherhood - Level 3 Occultist
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Offline young0ne2

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Re: Naturalist Archetype society VS Technical Archetype society
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2013, 07:58:02 PM »
OK im going to work on these classes because its what im working on at the moment:

Paladin - A technological steampunk mecha-warrior. His steed is an automaton and his armor is fitted with gears and a small engine. A machine in his armor produces his auras, and his holy symbol is a clockwork device that repels undead.


This idea i have addressed already. Building on that, one think i thought about at work today was to make the Paladin class more of a Prestige class, like on the Unearthed Arcana.  That might make them seem a bit more important in the image of the Tech. cities. still thinking
 
Wizard - Like SE, I can see this going either way. But given 3.5's approach to wizards as magicians who use written knowledge rather than inherent abilities, I would go technological. The magic itself could be scientific - I see a staff with vacuum tubes and vials, not unlike an alchemist but with more an emphasis on the usage of energy for spells.

See this was one of those that we were kind of unsure of. Going from the 3.5 approach we decided that a wizard would be more Tech. base because it involves long years of study and practice of the Arcane.  i kind of thought that maybe a Naturalist wizard would be something of a Elementalist, or maybe a summoner. I would almost say the best idea would be an Arcana based Druid but we're just having not 100% sure yet.

WuJen - Again, based on 3.5 setting, a technological magic user, but with more eastern flavor. Alternatively, this could be a wild hedge-wizard who relies solely on the elements. So maybe both.


See here, with the WuJen, this was our idea for the Naturalist version of the wizard. Because of their Hermit/witch like nature it seemed almost to fit. They're also very superstitios which actually is incorporated in to their class.

Ninja - A technological sneak who uses chemistry and mechanics to make himself disappear.

SPOT ON!

Swashbuckler - Going naturalist, a boastful warrior like Beowulf but who relies on finesse. Arm with some more primitive weapon than a rapier (a handaxe or even a short spear would play the part) and they can sail a longship as an wandering warrior.


I was thinking along these lines. My original reason for putting the swashbuckler on the naturalist side was for their seafaring fines, both on the waters and land. almost was thinking like a sea version of the ranger :P

Favored Soul - Innate and untrained says naturalist to me.


unsure with this one. i would agree with you, naturalist, but i want to give it more reason than just "innate and untrained".

Samurai - I'm seeing a variation of the samurai that uses wooden armor plates and armed with macuahuitls. They keep the dedication to honor you'd expect, but don't rely on steel.


i agree with you. Again like above, i want to find more support for them being Naturalist. Honestly i think they could be both, the differece being, with the Techno. Samurai, being the loss of their heritage weapons or something that disconnects them from the original Samurai idea.

Artificer - Depending on how developed your industrial society is, this would be the automaton-repairing folk. But if they're not that far, I might suggest naturalist: they scavenge material they find to create wondrous items, relying more on ingenuity than technology.


I do agree that Artificers Scavenge materials, but they are more magic-tech focused in the Eberron setting. The Tinker, a WoW RPG class, is one i could see going both ways because its very similar to the Artificer in terms of crafting like Mad, but with out the magic requirement, in fact its mentioned in the book that Tinkerer's rarly even use Magic, they make their own "tech-mods" to make up for the lack of Magic.

Archivist - A naturalist shaman who knots her spells on khipu wrapped in coils around her body rather than in the wizard's scrolls and books. Her knowledge comes from experience, stories of ancestors, generations-old khipu entrusted to her, and strange dreams from the gods she must interpret.


i kind of agree. actually your image here gives me a more Naturalist idea of this class. The Tech version i keep imagining involves a cleric-like character, with a lot of reference books. Kind of like a cleric that studies like a wizard, and instead of it being Divine devotion, its knowledge of the world around you.

Monk - Instinct says naturalist, but it's also plausible to imagine a character that withdraws from the noisy industry of a technological society to contemplate and develop their mystical body.


This class is one we have very high disagreements about. On the one had, i agree with you totally on the monk idea. The Argument comes from my friend who thinks a "tech-society" monk would be more of a Matrial Artist, so a monk with out the "monk". He see's them more like Melee focused fighter-est instead.
kind of odd but  i can see his point of view on this.

So what are your opinions?
are their any classes you think we should avoid all together? maybe some in other books we need to look into?
maybe another system other than DnD 3.5?
Im open to ideas and opinions and advice.

Offline young0ne2

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Re: Naturalist Archetype society VS Technical Archetype society
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2013, 12:43:00 PM »
Update:

Ok so far, the classes that we have talked about have been agreed upon by my friend. Their is still a HELL of a big debate about Samuri and Monk and where they would/ how they would fit in to either or both of the Societies.
The biggest being that a Samuri CAN NOT be a class from a Naturalist Society because the class is too heavily dependent on its sword (Katana), a technological development.
The Counter argument being that it takes years to make a proper Katana and it's also very cultural/historical to the people in charge of them. To make a real Katana it takes MONTHS of finding the materials, working the proper metals together, the process of forging ( which is passed down generation to generation), and then finishing the blade by applying the proper clays to the blade to give it the sheen and design that makes it what it is.

The Fight for the Monk is much the same. It CAN NOT be Technological because a monk needs to focus, needs a plays to meditate and train. The Technological Society wouldn't offer the monk these necessities, their by preventing the monk from becoming a monk.
The Counter Argument being that a monk is NOT limited to just a church or Monastery to train. One could find a quiet place to meditate and practice their martial art. It might be in a back allyway with a Random Cat watching you every other day, but it would still work.


This is where we got with our group on opinions. Their was also offered a "variant" for the monk class, where instead of getting their KI strike, Timeless Body, and other abilities like that, that something else would be used to replace these that would show the Technological Society Upbringing and Training, which led to a LOT of fighting.

Also, on another subject, After talking to the DM of this future game, it has come to my attention that the 2 societies are NOT Enemy's.
According to the history that he is throughing together, long ago both societies were 1, a HUGE war happened and now the survivors have developed in to the two new societies. One going back to nature and the land,(naturalist) where the other one went back to try and improve upon the old society and learn from its mistakes to make a better society, ( Technological)(becoming more Steam-punk because they are working from the Ruins of the old, back up to the top).

As far as their being a 3rd society or possably some other force out their( maybe some old forgotten Robotic army, or some great "EVIL" )is still unknown to me.

Let me know what your thoughts are.
Thanks in advance.

Offline Dozus

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Re: Naturalist Archetype society VS Technical Archetype society
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2013, 01:04:43 PM »
My simple solution to your samurai problem: exchange "katana" for something else. I suggest the macuahuitl intentionally as a katana replacement: like the katana, it is a weapon that takes skill to craft properly and strength to wield, but uses naturally-occurring obsidian instead of folded steel. Here's a D&D wiki version of it, if you want easy stats to introduce it to your fellow conspirator. I think it fits the bill for an honor warrior nicely.

I get the argument about monk more readily. It makes sense for a monk to be abhorrent of technological society. But it could also be an enclave within that society, reflective and hermetic. If you want to take it up another techno-notch, perhaps that various monk abilities are replaced with bio-tech enhancements that have to be installed when acquired (e.g., a mechanical arm replacement that provides the oomph in a ki strike).

The origin story of the two societies as being two approaches to peace makes good sense. Although I'd figure if they aren't enemies, they at least would have different enough viewpoints to not share much culturally. A Third Way society might be a robot army, supernatural demons from the deep, space invaders... Plenty of options.
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Offline young0ne2

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Re: Naturalist Archetype society VS Technical Archetype society
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2013, 01:37:26 PM »

I get the argument about monk more readily. It makes sense for a monk to be abhorrent of technological society. But it could also be an enclave within that society, reflective and hermetic. If you want to take it up another techno-notch, perhaps that various monk abilities are replaced with bio-tech enhancements that have to be installed when acquired (e.g., a mechanical arm replacement that provides the oomph in a ki strike).
See that was long the lines of what i was thinking. Somthing like a Technological Booster to make it equal with a normal monk. Maybe give it the ability to resist Supernatural Diseases easier because of the technological advancements, or make it so they can use specual gloves that allow them to do a charged up attack ( like a KI strike but with out the Supernatural ability to it i guess)

Although I'd figure if they aren't enemies, they at least would have different enough viewpoints to not share much culturally.

from what i gather, the DM is making it so that they 2 societies do have friendly terms, based on city-to-city diplomatics, and have open tradeing, BUT each society has their own beliefs that prevent it from addopting the others in the long run.

EX:Naturalist are afraid that if they go the tech route the war will happen again, and the plant has taken enough abuse and we need to work with it not against it
Technical are aftraid that if we dont learn from the past we're doomed to repeat it in the future, so to have "primitive tech" ( the NAturalist's old ways and "mystic" powers) could leave cracks in the defences of out world. We need to build off of our mistakes and learn from our forfathers greed by building what they could not for the greater good.

thats not their exact idea's but its close to what the DM is thinking.