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White Wolf is an awesome publisher

Oh, yeah, baby!
4 (26.7%)
Uh...Sure. Okay.
6 (40%)
No, not really.
3 (20%)
White Wolf makes me want to launch my intestines out of my eye-sockets!
2 (13.3%)

Total Members Voted: 15

Voting closed: July 09, 2003, 12:47:39 AM

Author Topic: White Wolf  (Read 5696 times)

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Offline CaptainPenguin

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« on: July 09, 2003, 12:47:39 AM »
WHITE WOLF IS THE COOLEST GAME COMPANY ON EARTH!

On a less exuberant note, has anybody ever heard of White Wolf's Black Dog material? I just wanted to know if anybody has ever seen or played Black Dog?
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Offline MoonHunter

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« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2003, 12:52:38 AM »
Yes. All it is White Wolf material that is "more adult". One of the books tells you about street life and crime. Another tells you about Gypsies. I forget the rest.   Nothing really all that exciting unless you are under the age of 15 or don't know much.

They all use the standard rules, provide some crunch bits, and some source material that many or may not be approriate for your campaign.


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Offline CaptainPenguin

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« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2003, 12:54:48 AM »
Okay. So that's what Black Dog is. Somehow, I'm still intrigued.

But what do you think of White Wolf as a whole?
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Offline MoonHunter

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« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2003, 01:00:00 AM »
For a time they had replaced TSR as the Top Game Company (to love and hate).  They originally generated some very cool, very innovative material. Then their quality slipped and they produced Drek that TSR of the 70s would of been proud.  They raised the bar for book production, turning what "gamers find acceptable" from saddlestiched hobby books, to professional quality hardbounds with color plates.  They also increased the acceptable average game price.  

Like TSR, when they were the top, they were able to put out drek and people bought it.  People still buy it out of brand loyalty and the hope that they may produce something cool once again.
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Offline Ylorea

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« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2003, 01:23:33 AM »
You have to like their style to like their books....

I am into a different genre, so I personly don't like their work.

I would hold it against nobody if they do like whitewolf.

Yours sincerly,

Ylorea
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Offline CaptainPenguin

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« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2003, 01:23:40 AM »
I find that a little bit biased against White Wolf. I find their "drek", as you put it, to be, most of the time, much better than the stuff that Wizards of the Coast vomits out. Not that I don't like WotC, but sometimes their stuff is just crap. And don't get me started with that Kevin guy and his Palladium and RIFTS! By Cthulhu! He's like the Grandfather of All Munchkins!
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Offline MoonHunter

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Why Drek?
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2003, 06:35:20 AM »
<rant/>

Their material is vastly more interesting than most RPG material put out there.  That does not say much for most published material, but I digress.  The novelty of their setting is what made WhiteWolf the TSR (or big game company) for a while there.  

Why is it occasionally Drek?  Because editions of the game contridict each other (in source material, they don't in the rules), and sometimes the splat books of the same generation/ edition do as well.  The splat books occasionally contridict the core rule books as well. Supporting material is supposed to "support". Yet in many cases, they change continuity retroactively. Editors should of caught some of this, but perhaps they did not care. Since playing in the "cannon" of the game is important, it forces players/ GMs to keep buying books.  

Aside: I know you can always say. Well this is my world and we do it this way... but for WoD players this does not work as well since cannon is important.  

Aside: It was for WW that the term splat book was created.  Note that most of use it as a term of contempt, though it is a good category of game material.  

This problem has been the most pronounced in Vampire, but has occured in Werewolf and Changeling.  There weren't any in Hunter or Wraith, that I could find.  (Don't know about Demon).  The Historical versions of them were interesting, but also created retoactive continuity.  That were addressed by any suppliment that were printed after them, but invalidated some of the support books.  

An aside:  They tooted that they were a "class less" game system, yet their clans/ tribes/ breeds/ kith/ are as regimented as any class system.  

As for the other games, Exalted, Adventure, Abarrent, Trinity, they were designed to require players to buy suppliments. There was just enough material in the core books to imply certain things, but not enough that you could GM certain things or play certain character types.  So they games are designed to be almost playable.  Though, Adventure is very stand alone, it screams for material to run the world... rather than material to play a given type of characters.

</rant>

I can not fault them for doing any of this.  It is a good business model.  It is just annoying.
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Offline ephemeralstability

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« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2003, 11:53:59 AM »
What the hell's a drek?
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Offline CaptainPenguin

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« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2003, 04:44:57 PM »
I don't know. Apparently, MoonHunter has a bone or two to pick with White Wolf. I, myself, don't consider rules to be as important as the setting and "cannon" (Shouldn't that be canon?)

Also, I find Exalted to be my favorite White Wolf product, and I like the way that the WoD books can all function on their own without the others.
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Offline Agar

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« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2003, 06:38:30 PM »
Drek is a term first seen in Shadowrun, formerly put out by FASA before they were consumed by the evil Wizards of the Coast. It means something along the lines of "filth" or "excrement".

White wolf sucks. Between the Vampires, Werewolves, Fae, Mummies, Ghosts, Mages, Hunters, and I guess now Demons, there aren't enough "normal" people to support the planet. We're all really something else, we just don't know it. They all use the same rules, they just have different art and some new names. I can write with the same level of orginality using cut and paste.
I might just do that. I'll publish a new game called 'Author: The Hacking'. You can pick among 'guilds' such as 'Romantasist' writing love stories, 'Frights' writing horror stories, 'Spooks' writing spy novels and others. You battle the 'Editors' who weild thier 'Highlighters' and deal aggrevated damage.
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Offline CaptainPenguin

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« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2003, 12:05:50 AM »
Okay, well that accounts for one of the people who said that White Wolf made them want to fire their intestines from their eye-sockets. Who was the other one? Moon, I'm lookin' your way...
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Offline CaptainPenguin

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« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2003, 12:07:17 AM »
Wizards of the Coast is obviously a tool of the forces of darkness, but NOT the Great Old Ones, who trascend puny humanity's concepts of "good" and "evil".
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Offline Ylorea

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« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2003, 01:19:29 AM »
If you call WotC forces of the darkside, you make me think of christians.....

Do you know that dice in old dutch are called "duivelseieren"? (This translates into "eggs of the devil")

Now I don't know about the other RP systems around, but I have a feeling, all of them use dice, so all are games of the devil.

hmmmm, maybe I don't believe all this, but still.....

Yours,

Ylorea

p.s. Why do we not just agree that we do not agree? Personaly I love many of the books by Mongoose, but that does not mean I will force the use of these books on my players.
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Offline CaptainPenguin

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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2003, 01:26:20 AM »
What I really want to know is who else wants to fire their intestines out of their eye-sockets when they see White Wolf? Not to insult them or anything (By the way, I hope I haven't insulted anybody in this thread), I just want to know. Now that I think about it, MoonHunter, you probably aren't the one, since you don't exhibit the seething hatred of White Wolf that Agar does.
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Offline MoonHunter

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Spelling can be important
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2003, 02:54:57 AM »
Actually, its not me.   I don't hate the company or the game, it is just not "wonderful", even if you are Goth or Punk.

The rules are fine. I like the WW 2.0 rule. They could be presented simplier, but that is an editorial thing.  

 It is the background material that they keep jerking around that is the reason for the comment Drek. You said the setting was what was important... well they kept changing key elements of the setting... that had ramifications for the rest of the game world.  Which ones do you follow? If you have to pick and choose and make up your own, then why is their setting so good when you have to "basically" make it up on your own.

I have run campaigns of WoD. I have Larped WoD. I have about 13 years of messing with it.  Retroactive changes to the continuity is a problem.  

The cookie cutter elements of White Wolf Products is annoying as well.  However, the formula seems to work.  Though it does explain why they lost momentum for Wraith and Hunter, and they did not produce splat books for the historical versions.

And lets not go into Exalted which is a great game that is suffering because White Wolf is trying to use the cookie cutter formula.

Oh, WotC is not a tool of the Devil.  D20 is merely mediocre, not worthy of the label of Evil, and Magic the Gathering is not that addictive.  The Devil has better tools.  

Spelling corner......
1) Drek or dreck    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (drk)
n. Slang
Trash, especially inferior merchandise.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[German, dirt, trash, and Yiddish drek, excrement both from Middle High German drec, from Old High German. See sker-3 in Indo-European Roots.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
drecky adj.

2) You are correct about Canon. Insert canon, rather than cannon.
can·on2    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (knn)
n.
A member of a chapter of priests serving in a cathedral or collegiate church.
A member of certain religious communities living under a common rule and bound by vows.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English canoun, from Norman French canun, from Late Latin cannicus, one living under a rule, from Latin cann, rule. See canon1.]

I will check my spelling the next time I rant.
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Offline CaptainPenguin

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« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2003, 12:09:27 PM »
I seem to be outnumbered here.

And Exalted is a wonderful game! A WONDERFUL GAME! How could you not like Exalted?!
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Offline Agar

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« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2003, 01:49:14 PM »
Never heard of Exaulted. Which one is that? Software Monopoly: The Exaulted, presented by bill gates?

Did you notice how they shot out a mummy game about the same time as the second mummy movie? Buffy is popular and there's a hunter game. They must have noticed some trend when "Interveiw with a Vampire" came out and their sales went up. With Johnny Depp's new pirate movie, I expect we'll see Pirates: The Wenching any time now. Maybe they'll drop one out for the "2 fast 2 furious" fans and make Rides: The Speeding. They must be too busy remaking their Mage: The Ascention rules to appeal to Harry Potter fans.
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Offline strom

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« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2003, 02:27:30 PM »
I never really had a chance to get too involved with WW; the players I gamed with seemed too busy trying to dominate each other to get too organized. I really did like the character I created, though.
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Offline Siren365

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« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2003, 03:46:34 PM »
*shrugs*

I've heard of them and thought about checking out their game, but right now, I'm still begging my friends to try to D&D. But I don't know... from what little I've read, it did seem interesting.
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Offline MoonHunter

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Exalted is a good game
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2003, 02:38:19 AM »
One of the better games WW has put out. It is not World of Darkness. It is one of the best new Fantasy Games in a decade or more.  If you can get a used copy, I highly recomend it for your collection. Even if you never run it, you will not be sad for owning it.  

The problem most of us have with it though, is that we have to buy all those splat books to run the game.  The core rules are too skimpy on information and GAME MECHANICS to run the game the way it is designed to be run.  You have to make it up as you go along and hope the future published material does not make you too much a liar, or get splats.  

I mean, they don't give you enough info to create and run Dragons and Lunars and they are your main opposition. The splat books for each solar aspect is nearly required as the core rules don't provide everything they should.  So they put out a main book and require you to buy everything else to effective run the game.  They should of made it a huge 50 dollar book and included everything you needed to run the game.  

So I like Exalted. I can't afford to run it.
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Offline CaptainPenguin

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« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2003, 10:03:13 AM »
I have the Dragon-Blooded, Lunar, and Abyssal Exalted books. I'll give you that: It is very expensive.

But since you seem to have some sort of deep-seated resentment and rage towards World of Darkness, Agar, you'll be pleased to know that it is not a WoD product.

I like the way that Exalted isn't just a medieval theme. It's vaguely Asian, but with hints of other cultures all so well blended that it becomes it's own cool world.
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Offline Agar

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« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2003, 07:18:21 PM »
*Cheers for a product that is different than the main sellers from a company! Take the risks, we will suport you!*

I must say that while I dislike the manner White Wolf has presented their World of Darkness, they are a professional company. My interest is piqued. I will have to go check out this Exaulted and judge it for it's own merit.
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Offline MoonHunter

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You will not be disappointed
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2003, 03:12:26 AM »
Exalted is a great fantasy game with anime/ pulp influences.  Find as many books as you can used, as you will need most of the suppliments.
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Offline CaptainPenguin

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Sumpin' big, children...
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2003, 12:20:14 PM »
At GenCon today, White Wolf made a huge announcement:

WORLD OF DARKNESS IS GOING TO END!!!

Starting next January, the White Wolf dudes will be releasing a series of books detailing the end of the World of Darkness, a series called Time of Judgement. After these books are released, White Wolf will no longer publish or produce World of Darkness material!

....I'm so sad..... :cry:

Better go out and get the rest of my White Wolf stuff before it's too late!
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Offline Agar

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« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2003, 07:02:40 PM »
*Does a happy dance with a shovel, then digs the future grave for the world of darkness*
After a brief retirement while I got married and traveled the country, I'm back. Just getting back into the swing of things for now, but gearing up to hit things up like I used to.