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Offline MoonHunter

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Save the Rant
« on: December 06, 2006, 04:53:32 PM »
Today at 06:50:13 AM - MoonHunter - Manfred, the new Kerren Post is in place   
 Today at 07:18:59 AM - manfred - And we tremble for more.     
 Today at 08:39:01 AM - Murometz - I'm trembling, but not for more   
 Today at 08:40:37 AM - Murometz - go back to Aaaarth!!! Pleeease!!   
 Today at 09:41:33 AM - MoonHunter - Muro, you all had a chance to weigh in on it... and everyone who bothered weighed in for Kerren   
 Today at 09:42:58 AM - Murometz - well, I am not complaining. You can do whatever your heart desires, but my 2 main beefs are 1) STATS   
 Today at 09:43:05 AM - MoonHunter - Except for Manfred, who weighted in for Kerren and the The New Mountains of "The Truth"     
 Today at 09:43:05 AM - Murometz - 2)PERN   
 Today at 09:43:44 AM - Murometz - besides, I have no idea what your talking about when you say "weigh in".     
 Today at 09:43:59 AM - MoonHunter - Which are completely explained in the text after them.     
 Today at 09:44:40 AM - MoonHunter - Pern?!  You are complaining about Pern when 90% of the material on the site is a ....   
 Today at 09:45:08 AM - MoonHunter - ... half step out of Tolkien?   
 Today at 09:45:32 AM - MoonHunter - or Borroughs if you are generous   
 Today at 09:46:08 AM - Murometz - would love to continue but I need to get the hell out of the office. See you tonight   
 Today at 09:46:33 AM - Murometz - I am not "complaining" about Pern, I simply hate Pern. There is a difference     
 Today at 09:46:33 AM - MoonHunter - And we have a few pieces that are a step out of Robert E. Howard     
 Today at 09:47:11 AM - Murometz - not my stuff   
 Today at 09:47:20 AM - MoonHunter - Are we so limited that when we extend beyond a Psuedo Medival, Para-Eruopean Fantasy or away ... 
 Today at 09:47:48 AM - MoonHunter - ... from DnD compatable fantasy, we shy away from it?     
 Today at 09:47:59 AM - Murometz - and I like Tolkien and Robert E Howard. You're not "getting" it . I hate Pern     
 Today at 09:48:06 AM - MoonHunter - Rant on Pause... your thoughts?   
 Today at 09:48:21 AM - Murometz - therefore, I cant enjoy Kerren, though feel free to Pern away!   
 Today at 09:48:40 AM - Murometz - pause, pause...I'll be back in 2 hours   
 Today at 09:48:40 AM - MoonHunter - And Kerren is about as Pern and most Western Fantasy is Tolkien.   
 Today at 09:48:50 AM - Murometz -     
 Today at 09:49:00 AM - manfred - (There's a tiny bit of sci-fi stuff now, as well.  )   
 Today at 09:49:00 AM - MoonHunter - Other than three books out of the dozens... I hated the novels   
 Today at 09:49:27 AM - MoonHunter - It is not pern. Pern does not have dinosaurs   
 Today at 09:49:54 AM - MoonHunter - Pern only has stilted political drama combined with a small bit of threat of social change.     
 Today at 09:50:21 AM - MoonHunter - It is about as Pern as anything with a Magic Sword is a King Arthur tale.   
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Offline Scrasamax

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Re: Save the Rant
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2006, 02:50:19 PM »
Rant Initialized
It has been said several times by various people that Kerren and Pern are very similar, and some might consider too similar. This is going to be my final word on the matter and for me, after this post I will consider the matter dead. The main point here is to demonstrate the points of similarity between Pern and Kerren. My primary resources for this is the Pern entry at Wikipedia, which I know is not the quintessential resource but it is the only one I have easily at hand, and MoonHunter's http://www.strolen.com/content.php?node=3374 submission

Point 1
Quote
For hundreds of years colonist from Earth have lived on Kerren. They came to Karren to live a simplier peaceful life.
Excerpt from Kerren.

Quote
In the novels, Pern was colonised by settlers from Earth who wanted to return to an agrarian society with a low level of technology.
Excerpt from Wiki.

Arguement
Both Kerren and Pern were settled by colonists from Earth, which basically puts both as similar in origin, and having the peculiar combination of dragons and starships in the same milieu. This is a minor point.

Point 2
Quote
Kerren is a world of little metal.
Excerpt from Kerren

Quote
Pern is relatively lacking in most major metals.
Excerpt from Wiki

Arguement
As with point 1, this isn't a major argument as it is required of an advanced technological society to be forced to rely on organic means of defence (dragons) and to keep technology from becoming rampant over said dragons and fantasy elements.

Point 3
Quote
Zhan are extradimensonal blobs that fall from rifts caused by electrical storms.
Excerpt from Kerren

Quote
Shortly after the first colony was established, the settlers discovered that their chosen planet was subject to periodic attack from space by the destructive Thread


Arguement
While thread and zhan do have several fundamental differences, thread coming from another world and destroying organic matter, and zhan being extradimensional and causing mutations, the basic idea of an impersonal menace falling from the sky is the same basic concept.

Point 4
Quote
However, the Colonists found allies on Kerren- The Dragons. Working with this native animal species, The Ryders defend their people. Riding their dragons they destroy Zhan
Excerpt from Kerren

Quote
Unable to retreat from the peril, the settlers developed methods of combating the Thread.... Pernese scientists genetically "upgraded" these into full-sized flame-breathing telepathic dragons, who were able to sear the Thread before it could fall to the ground.


Arguement
The core of both series are the same, the conflict of dragon riders and dragon ryders who ride dragons to burn thread/zhan before it falls to the earth to inflict its damage. To me, this is the largest of the points of contention as though it is stated that the focus of Kerrenese gaming is interaction between humans of various stripes, it is set against the standard background of dragons burning foes from the sky.

Counter-Arguement
Quote
Today at 09:48:40 AM - MoonHunter - And Kerren is about as Pern and most Western Fantasy is Tolkien.   

Today at 09:50:21 AM - MoonHunter - It is about as Pern as anything with a Magic Sword is a King Arthur tale.


Western Fantasy owes a great deal to Tolkien, but his works sprang from the collective mythology of Europe which is composed of magic swords, magic rings, dragons, and elves. For a work to be derivative of Tolkien, as 1st ed D&D was, the focus would have to be on the triumph of good over evil, the destruction of a magic ring of power, and battling the minions of an evil god. While there is alot of fantasy that does fall into this motif, that is because much of the motif is broad and easily adaptable, almost fantasy archtypes.

King Arthur, much like Tolkien is also a broad and archtypical tale containing very fundamental characteristics and characters. It is also a bildungsroman or a novel of coming to age, starting with youthful Arthur pulling the sword from the stone and evolving into The Once and Future King bit.

Pern does not share these broad archtypical themes.

Quote
If you are going to have dragons that are not stabled like horses, you are going to have something like Pern.
Excerpt from Kerren, Kerren is not Pern article

This is a obvious presumption, it is not the presence of dragons and those who would ride them that make Kerren and Pern similar, it is a layering of excessively similar themes.

Final Arguement
There are more similarities between the two, things like the imprinting process, the demarcation of the society and the interchangability of weyr and hold without any loss of meaning. I do not want to go any further with the points of similarity, because to me the similarity is obvious and almost painfully so.

Frank Herbert, the author of the Dune books, took Lucas to court over the similarities between Star Wars and Dune, to which he supplied no fewer than 16 points of reference. his case was overturned as most of his points existed on literary levels and most people agreed that Luke Skywalker and Paul Atreides were in no way copies of each other. Most people I know find such a presumption to border on ridiculous. In counterpoint, the similarities between Kerren and Pern are so obvious that Moonhunter had to write a statement countering it even before the first comment was made.

Quote
Some well read people will have just said to themselves, "Hey, this is just like Pern."


Kerren IS Pern presented in a format that can be used for RPG purposes. It is a dragon of a different color, but the same beast underneath.



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Offline Murometz

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Re: Save the Rant
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2006, 03:38:17 PM »
Quote
If you are going to have dragons that are not stabled like horses, you are going to have something like Pern.


Moon, that line is downright scary! (and soooooooo NOT true). All you need is imagination.
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