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Author Topic: AD&D Gunfighter  (Read 15557 times)

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Offline Duilwen Dairuin

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« on: April 19, 2003, 03:49:25 PM »
I was thinking -
Guns aren't used much in AD&D, and for good reason  :P

But perhaps, if there was a custom kit that specializes in the use of guns, they would be more worthwhile.  Anyone have any ideas?
"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
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Offline Ria Hawk

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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2003, 03:59:44 PM »
The gnomes are usually the ones considered to be the tinkerers, aren't they?  A gun would probably be a gnomish invention, so a gunfighter would probably have to be a gnome or have good relations with gnomes.
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Offline ephemeralstability

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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2003, 03:59:54 PM »
I think it depends entirely on the context. I would be against the use of guns in most campaigns, save for historically based ones, in which case the limitations of the period should be borne in mind: eighteenth century guns would probably be less accurate, take longer to load, and heavier than they are today.

I'd also recommend requiring two proficiency slots for the use of guns, since they are so specialised and inflict so much damage.

In fantasy settings maybe a more innovative magical alternative could be found: a baby dragon, when its mouth is loaded with a heavy metal ball and its nose sprinkled with pepper dust, might sneeze and catapult the ball out like a cannon. A captive or geased sprite might fire arrows in the direction its master points it.

I think guns are best avoided generally, though, in both roleplaying and in real life.

ephe!
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Offline Duilwen Dairuin

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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2003, 05:25:46 PM »
Gnomes don't neccessarilly have to have anything to do with it.

There are already rules about gun prof. slots.

And by the way, that is all well and good, but I think that, in some cases, guns can be a fun addition to the game...
"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
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Offline ephemeralstability

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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2003, 05:38:39 PM »
I don't really see the attraction: guns can make combat considerably less interesting, since it is all over in a flash.

In a stereotypical setting I'd agree with Ria, gnomes tend to be into that sort of mechanical thing, so they'd be likelier to invent and produce guns. Indeed, the restriction of guns to one particular race would provide for good plot hooks, as the other races competed to steal the technology from them.

Maybe guns could be made illegal by a ruler who fears their power. This would restrict their use to desperate situations, or provide plot hooks (tracing users/producers). Alternatively, they could have only just been discovered, and a murder inquiry might be perplexed by the strange but characteristic injuries on the bodies: what could have caused them (a la Terry Pratchett's "Men at Arms")?

ephe!
"Happy is the tomb where no wizard hath lain, and happy the town at night whose wizards are all ashes" - H P Lovecraft, The Festival

Offline Agar

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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2003, 06:20:38 PM »
One option may be the steam gun I listed in the items section. You eliminate gunpowder and all its other uses entirely, and although I listed the tinker gnomes as the inventors, anyone that can cast a spell to heat something up could make the gun.

The technology is limited to single shot weapons as if you tried to make a revolver, the chamber next to the one that was being fired would get hot enough to set off it's "shell" too. Even a side by side barrel wouldn't work for the same reasons. Instead of rifling, since the gun uses metal stoppers, they could use a broken drill bit as a slug and the drill bit's grouves would act a bit like a rifled barrel, so some longer range shots would be possible. Sniper assassins would still prefer the more accurate and much more quiet bow as opposed to the large cloud of steam and loud hiss of a steam gun.
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Offline MoonHunter

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Might I recomend...
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2003, 01:52:34 AM »
If you are looking for some cool gun feats and abilities, may I suggest Spycraft.  Not only is it a good game, it will give you what you need for feats for a gunslinger.  

As for class, I would suggest simple fighter, with a required exotic weapon skill/ feat.  It does not need a class of its own. It is not a special magikal weapon, anyone can use one. (If you think about them as weak magik items that any class can use that have expensive material components to use, guns become a lot less scary in a hit point game.) The whole point is the access issue.  

When introducing them to a campaign ask the following question...

Who knows how to make a gun? Is it limited to a given culture/ society or race?  Are the assasins the only ones who know how to make them? Making a gun requires a good grade of steel... who has access to that?  Does who ever make them keep it as a monopoly or does it sell them to anyone with enough cash?

How expensive is a gun?  Is this a nobles only weapon? (Will it become the badge of honor for the social class?) Can anyone get one? Are their laws against Non-Nobles carrying them?  Are they sold or do you have to earn them? If only one man in a kingdom can make them, what is the wait like waiting for a gun to be made?  What happens to the idiot who threatens the ONLY gun maker in the kingdom?  

How expensive is gun powder? Having a gun is easy. Having powder to use in it is the controlling issue. A monopoly or near monopoly on making powder assures that it will not wreck your game because shots will be limited.  I have had guns in a fantasy game. I also charged 100GP per shot/ charge. If the Alchemists or Assasins or Powder makers charge dearly for powder, people will seldom use their firearms. If it is cheaper than arrows, then everyone will be able to shoot as fast as they can.  


Just some thoughts.....
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Offline Duilwen Dairuin

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« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2003, 04:26:57 PM »
There are some good thoughts here... Thanks for your time :wink:
"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
-George Orwell.

Offline Agar

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« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2003, 12:37:49 PM »
The first guns were made from cast bronze, not good steel. To have them made from steel, but be limited to nobles would suggest a heavily bloody history of gun fighting after which guns were outlawed and destroyed (Think england, only much more bloody). This would make a large underground market of hidden guns. These guns would be old and unreliable. Only the newer guns made for the nobility would be reliable. And, of course, due to nobility being able to say "I don't care, just make it the way I command" many of these guns are likely to be silly, with barrels cast in the shape of dragons heads, Ridiculously big or long (to account for an inadequacy), made with precious metals and jewels, and otherwise be vastly eye-catching and recognizable. For them, it's part of thier wardrobe.

An interesting note about early forms of gunpowder. When first mixed with early techniques, gun powder would settle, with the charcoal, sulfur and saltpewter seperating. After marching for a hundred miles, the soildiers would try to fire their guns and nothing happens. It wasn't untill people discovered wet mixing that gunpowder would fire reliably. You can let your players think they're being all clever, making their own gunpowder and avoiding the 100 gp a shot cost, just give thier home made gunpowder a chance of firing 19 or less on a d 20 to fire, minus 1 for every 5 miles marched. March 50 miles, your gunpowder hads a 50/50 chance of working. The powder makers should probally know how to mix theirs wet, making reliability worth the cost.
After a brief retirement while I got married and traveled the country, I'm back. Just getting back into the swing of things for now, but gearing up to hit things up like I used to.

Offline Duilwen Dairuin

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« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2003, 08:29:38 PM »
:lol: Where did you dig this up?
"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
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Offline CaptainPenguin

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« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2003, 09:21:57 PM »
How do you people find these things, man? I mean, you must surf the net deep into the 'o' dark thirty! Or do you already have these on hand?
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Offline Agar

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« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2003, 12:26:49 AM »
I am just a voice against gunpowder in a fantasy setting. If they want guns, they usually want a Sci-Fi campaign, so we switch genres. If they really want to have guns in a fantasy settnig, they probally want to be munchkins and don't expect to get shot. Remember, land mines are quite simple devices, ones munchkins in fantasy setting rarely look for.

http://www.silcom.com/~vikman/isles/scriptorium/firearm/firearm.html
http://www.lrml.org/longrange/history02.htm

These links explain early firearms. It would probally take me another 4 hours to find the gunpowder settling site. Take my word for it or research it yourself. :P
After a brief retirement while I got married and traveled the country, I'm back. Just getting back into the swing of things for now, but gearing up to hit things up like I used to.

Offline MoonHunter

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Good Net scholarship...
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2003, 01:17:41 AM »
And good point about a fool...er noble and his weapon.
MoonHunter
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Offline Duilwen Dairuin

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« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2003, 10:09:40 AM »
Thanks for the link...  and the munchkin warning  :lol:
"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
-George Orwell.

Offline Fiokar_Dracolas

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« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2003, 12:09:23 PM »
It might be possible to find a way to work guns into a fantasy setting without giving the users of said guns too much power. The world that Randal Garret's Lord Darcy books are set in comes to mind.
Anything is possible. Anything at all. However, probability is another matter....

Offline Ria Hawk

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« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2003, 05:05:04 PM »
You intrigue me.  Please explain.
Sometimes angels fall from grace, and sometimes heroes die.

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Offline Duilwen Dairuin

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« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2003, 06:55:33 PM »
I concur...
"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
-George Orwell.

Offline Fiokar_Dracolas

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« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2003, 02:04:30 PM »
In general, the setting of the Lord Darcy books is that of our own world in th early 1900s. The twists are:

A) Magic takes the place of science as top dog. Many things that we accieve with science, they do with magic. Science is still present but it is a minor field of research, for the most part, with guns being one ot the few constants.

B)Most of the world is ruled (or allied with) the Anglo-French Empire. This is what SUPPOSEDLY came from King Richard the Lion-Heart surviving a mortal wound during the crusades. Their chief rival is the Polish Empire. Best to read one of the books for clearer details.
Anything is possible. Anything at all. However, probability is another matter....

Offline Duilwen Dairuin

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« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2003, 07:25:02 PM »
I think I will do that... Thanks, Fiokar
"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
-George Orwell.

Offline MoonHunter

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Also if guns are present....
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2003, 02:54:16 AM »
If guns are present and become popular, then won't the MUs respond and create some basic anti-gun spells?

Anti-missile: Add AC vs Guns.. first level

Reflect Bullets: A low level spell design to reflect bullets and only bullets back at their "caster", with the mages to hit roll.  

Snuff: creates a radius where all fires (and tiny fires/ explosions being required for early guns to go off) will not work.

Oops: Cast this cantrip at a powder bag or gun and watch the charge go off.

These and many more can make guns bad. If these spells are of a low enough level, then having a gun becomes more of a liability than an asset.

Also read the Lord Darcy Books... very good reading.
MoonHunter
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Offline Agar

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« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2003, 12:50:32 AM »
More anti guns spells ...

Dampen - wets the powder, making it not fire.

Plug - Telekinetic forces obstruct the barrel, making the gun explode in the shooter's hand.

Delay Spark - The gun functions normally, except the spark to set off the powder is delayed one round. Let's hope they don't decide to clean their barrel...

Cast stone to flesh/mud on thier flint.

Cast heat metal on their gun.

Cast warp wood on their stock. May jam the trigger mechanism or bent the barrel.

Enlarge their bullet and/or shrink their barrel.

Feather fall their bullet. best to do this BEFORE it is fired.

Hold portal the hammer. (Valve of metal?)
After a brief retirement while I got married and traveled the country, I'm back. Just getting back into the swing of things for now, but gearing up to hit things up like I used to.

Offline MoonHunter

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You begin to see....
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2003, 01:48:45 AM »
There are hundreds of ways to balance out the power of a firearm.  These spells give you great examples of game mechanics to solve the issue.  There can be social and allignment issues (If the Lawful church declares it Heresey to use, only chaotics will use it.) to restrict its use.  There can be social role rules associated with it.  

These are the same things we can do with any powerful force in a game (some people do it to MUs, or certain player races).  For every advantage, there should be a matching limitation.  It is the drama of overcoming that limitation that enhances the fun of the game.
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Offline Wulfhere

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Re: AD&D Gunfighter
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2007, 02:19:24 PM »
Keep in mind that guns were around for a couple of hundred years before they became a significant factor in tactical decision making.  Early handheld guns were expensive, short-ranged, and unreliable.

If introducing guns, they need not be super deadly.  Bows and crossbows can inflict horrific wounds, as the arrow/bolt tends to jerk sideways as it hits, tearing a much more severe internal wound than many people realize.  People think of gunshot wounds in terms of Hollywood, not in terms of their actual effects.  Arrow wounds can be as deadly.

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Offline MoonHunter

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Re: AD&D Gunfighter
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2007, 03:12:01 PM »
You know, I had forgotten about this thread. There is some good ideas in here.

Some links you might find useful
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Early_firearms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm#History
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_firearms


These are all modern:
This listing is from the IGW listing. There is some really great stuff in that thread. Strolen really needs to develop the web links submission system for us.

We don't always want to play with swords and magic. Sometimes reality is checked in.  So here is some useful links for many peoples' favorite toys. They are mostly "Equipment/ Price list suitable sites, but you can get some interesting information and resource material off some of them.

** Firearms Tactial **:www.firearmstactical.com/
Firearms Tutorial: http://medlib.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNINTRO.html

***Security Arms –Pictures of Firearms ***.: http://www.securityarms.com/

Advanced Armament: www.advanced-armament.com
American Slider: www.americanslider.com
Ammo Guide: http://ammoguide.com/
Bagmaster: www.bagmaster.com
Barrett rifles : www.barrettrifles.com
Berretta:www.berettausa.com
Blackhawk industries: www.blackhawkindustries.com
Blackheart: www.1stoptacticalgear.com
Boonie Packer: www.booniepacker.com
Buck Knife: www.buckknives.com
Buffer Technology: www.buffertech.com
Bushmasters: www.bushmaster.com/
Capital City Firearms: www.ccfa.com
CIA: www.cia.gov
**CIA Factbook **: www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/
Cimarron Western Firearms: www.cimarron-firearms.com
Colt: www.Colt.com
Concealed Carry Clothiers: www.concealedcarry.com
Cop Search: leolinks.com
Corbion: www.corbion.com
Cowboy Guns: www.usfirearms.com
** DARPA **: www.darpa.mil
Debritos: www.debritos.com
Department of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms: www.atf.gov
Desantis: www.desantisholsters.com
Don Hume Holsters: www.donhume.com
DPMS: www.dpmsinc.com
DS Arms: www.dsarms.com
Eo Tech: www.eotech-inc.com
Espionage Info.: GovernmentIntelligence.com
European American Armory: www.eaacorp.com
FBI: www.fbi.gov
Firearms and Liberty (take with salt) : www.firearmsandliberty.com
Fn : www.fnhusa.com
Forbus: www.forbusholster.com
Galco intl: www.usgalco.com
Gemtech: www.gem-tech.com
Gerber Blades: www.gerberblades.com
GG&G: www.gggaz.com
Gunshot Wounds articles: http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/llb/gunshot.htm
.\Investigation School: www.pvteye.com
Glock inc: www.glock.com
Gould and Goodrich: www.gouldusa.com
Gun Vault: www.gunvault.com
Harrts: www.harrtsrecoil.com
Horus Vision: www.horusvision.com
Island Group: www.islandsecuritystore.com
Kahr :www.khar.com
Kel Tech: www.kel-tech.com
Kershaw Knives: www.kershawknives.com
Knife Mart: www.KnifeMart.com
Lancer Books: www.warbooks.com
Laser Max: www.Lasermax-inc.com
Magsafe: www.magsafeonline.com
Maxsell corp: www.maxsell.cm
McMillian: mcmfamily.com
MD Tactical: www.mdtactical.com
mec-gar: www.mec-gar.com
Meprolight: www.meprolight.com
MI 5: www.trousers.co.uk/mi5/
Military Book Club: www.militarybookclub.com
Military site: http://www.1st-militarysite.com/
Muscle Products: www.mpc-home.com
*NET BOOK OF FIREARMS*: http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Firearms-No-Frames.htm
Operation Parts: www.operationparts.com
***** Paladin Press ******: www.paladin-press.com
Pearce Grips: www.pearcegrip.com
Police Officer Support.: www.officer.com
Police Online: www.policeone.com
Pro Edge Knives: www.proedgeknives.com
Remington: www.remington.com
Rugers: www.ruger-firearms.com
Rock River Arms: www.rockriverarms.com
Savage Arms: www.savagearms.com
Schmidt Bender: www.schmidt-bender.com
Sentry Solutions: www.sentrysolutions.com
Shooters Choice: www.shooters-choice.com
Shooting Systems: www.gunaccessories.com
SigArms: www.sigarms.com
Smith and Alexander: www.smithandalexander.com
Smith and Wesson: www.smith-wesson.com
SOG Specialty Knives: www.sogknives.com
Spyderco: www.spyderco.com
Spy Toys: www.espionage-store.com
SWAT Products: www.policeoneproducts.com
TacMIII: www.tacm3.com
Taser International: www.taser.com
US PI SCHOOL: www.spytechangency.com
Wilson Combat: www.wilsoncombat.com


http://www.thegunzone.com/


MoonHunter
Sage, Gamer, Mystic, Wit
"The road less traveled is less traveled for a reason."
"The world needs dreamers to give it a soul."
"And it needs realists to keep it alive."
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