Do you think Saddam will leave Iraq?

[Karad'as]

Do you think Saddam will leave Iraq?

[Lady Wiccan Wolf]

Rats always know when to leave a sinking ship.

[Kassil]

I'd say it doesn't matter. After all, Dubya is intent on war - just like Daddy. If you can't raise the economy through intelligent action, raise it by picking a fight.

[Fiokar_Dracolas]

Why should Saddam leave when the people prefer him to US intevention? I think the people want the evil the chose over the percieved evil of the help. (I say perceived because I'm running on guesses and in-family disscussions, NOT facts). I think the US is in a lose-lose situation if that...person gets his war. They will spend resources on a war that they want but no one else does.

[Kassil]

...Even a large chunk of his citizens don't want this war.

...Of course, then there're the patriotic youths, including the muscular jocks and skinny 'womyn' who're bouncing on the street corners going 'Honk for War!'

...Wonder how many of 'em are gonna change their minds the moment they start getting drafted?

[Garek]

Saddam knows it. Most political figures know it. Bush probably doesn't though.
We Need more allies in this war.
All we have are the Brits, and they aren't so confident in that either. Their pro-war population is at 12%. The U.S.'s, after Bush's speech, was 72%. We can hardly afford a war. The last Gulf War had 12 other allies in it, and most U.S. citiens hope it will work better than that. Until Bush is ready to get a harsh blow to the popular view of other countries, he won't go to war.

[Kassil]

Bush's not smart enough to realize this. His advisors might be - but BUSH, I'm afraid, has been proven to have an intelligence that is below average. His IQ is lukewarm. The man is officially, categorically stupid. Not to the point of mental retardation, which is why he made it into office, but some of the Empty-Headed Blonde Ditzes(tm) (either gender of the breed) have a higher capacity for intellectual thought.

...Yes, I'm ranting. I loathe the man, chiefly because I have an inense dislike of people who are stupid and yet think themselves to be better equipped to run my life than I am.

...Not to directly offend anyone, but this is generally why I dislike the large majority of the Christian faiths, as well. Most of my encounters with them have consisted of them trying to tell me that I'm living in sin, going to hell, etc, for living my life as I see fit.

[Ria Hawk]

I don't pariticularly want to go to war.  I don't think anyone sane ever does.  But I do think that Saddam needs to be removed from power one way or another, because the man is a psycho.

[Kassil]

The problem is that there're 2-4 other unofficial wars being fought at the same time, to say nothing of all those 'peacekeeping' actions... The US is currently trying to make everyone obey our code of ethics, which a lot of the nations in the area resent - understandably, given that they follow a religion different from Christianity. Just as extreme in most regards, but different.

[manfred]

Hmmm... what a lively non-RP-thread.

Back to that main question. I guess its still time to place a bet (I do no bets, and would never on this theme).

I voted NO, even though I hope for a YES. Much would be easier if he just left on his own... this kind of people just does not make things easier, huh?

And if I would be truly deeply rotten Evil, as I am not (or maybe...   ), I guess I would sit back in Iraq, start a war, then see it loosing run away to some country that can accept me, after I ruined my own country, perhaps after I use that weapons. I hope Saddam is not that Evil.

And a thingy: if/when he is captured, which Saddam will it be? He has numerous doubles, it is said. Won't be easy to find out.

As for Bush, Christianity, activists, war or not, other themes....
I guess it would need another forum to talk about it fully!

Ah, doesn't matter. Don't like Bush either.

[Fiokar_Dracolas]

I hope that he(Saddam) would leave on his own, but I seriously doubt it. Come to think of it, I doubt Bush or Gorden Campbell(BC's premier-He's about as liked up here as Bush seems to be in this forum) would leave before they absolutely must.
As for a retreat, does he have anywhere to go outside of Iraq? Maybe I'm just a touch uninformed, but I don't recall Iraq/Saddam having many allies.

[CaptainPenguin]

I voted NO, but I really hope that he does. I REALLY REALLY DO NOT WANT WAR. And I live in the U.S. Hey, all you folks in other countries, you do know that many Americans are opposed to the war, too, right?

Cuz if you thought that all of the people in the U.S. were behind Bush, you were sadly mistaken

[Karad'as]

Looks like most of you have been right because the deadline has finished and he has not left the country. It seems that hwe does want a war after all.

[CaptainPenguin]

Well, there we go. I guess Santa doesn't give early Christmas presents, cuz the wars on. Crap.



         
       

 

[drphluid]

Of course he will not leave. He has not ever fully complied with the UN resolution, until he was forced to.  In the past twelve years he has push as far and as hard as he could get away with.  Only after having RADAR site blown up or tanks line up on his borders did he stop pushing and then it was only for a while.

Fiokar_Dracolas, I have to commend you as one of the few people who is willing to admit that he or she does not have ALL the information and might not know everything.  And for the record I agree with your statement.

Garek, war improves the economy.  It is only the threat of war and the uncertainty that creates turmoil in the market and therefore stifles the economy.

Kassil, as an American I am surprised that you have such a low opinion of what it takes to get voted the President of the United States.  Just a little above retardation is underestimating the majority of the voting public I think.  As far as people telling you what to think and how to live and if you are going to hell, imagine what the people in the middle east would tell you.

All, it is nice that you all sit around discussing your opinion, just remember it is actions like this war and the day to day actions of our men and women in uniform in your contry that give you the freedom to have and discuss you opinions.  Be happy that there are people who are willing to provide you that right with there blood, sweet, and tears.  After all you could be in Iraq and have to listen to Sadam approved material.  As far as "Dubya" not knowing something, lets be real he has more information on these topics than the rest of us put together.  Before we go underestimating this, lets understand he is not having a fight in the school yard he is sending men and women off to possibly die, rush decision are not policy in these situations.  

As an active duty member in the US military, I am in a position to be sent to Iraq and possible die for Bushes decision, unlike the rest of you, and I am not as bothered by this as the rest of you seem to be.  To be honest, I don't think this decision is in our best interest.  But not doing anything to psychos who are in a position to hurt innocent people just because they are not the right kind of Muslim, might not be the right decision either.  The rest of you can relax since there are people to handle this for you.

On the topic of Sadam, he needs to go, he will be removed.  Bahrain has offered him a safe place to live in exile, poo on him for not taking it.

I would say more but I am not trying to create a war on Strolen.  This is probably not the correct forum for this discussion.  If any of you get to read this, then at least I will be happy.

[Fiokar_Dracolas]

Drphluid, I live with a constant respect for those who are in the miliatry or law enforcement. I am exceptionally aware of how much I can and can not do because of their efforts. I honestly have nothing but respect and admiration for your career and all of the people who take it up.
 
While I agree that Saddam must go, I can't help but feel that there might have been another way to go about it, some other angle that we all missed. Maybe I'm just being an idealistic, naive teen, but it seems that the world is caught up in a frenzy from the 9-11 attack and isn't thinking things through as throughly as it might have otherwise.

As to the Bush issue, he may not be stupid or ignorant as he appears to be in the media, but he certainly appears to be little more than a figurehead for the pro-war faction. Maybe he does have more information then the rest of us. If so, I don't understand why doesn't he try to use it to convince some of the more border-line opinioned countries? Maybe the media is putting a slant on the information that does come our way. They certainly miss and/or modify alot of the good things that happen in this big world of ours.

I too have do desire to create a war here on Strolen, and this probably isn't the place for this disscussion. But I ask that you consider this, where else in the world are you likely to find such a diverse group capable of discussing this without risking further warfare?

I guess I'm posting this more to let you know that your message was read by at least one person and understood, then to continue the thread. I, for one, hope this ends as quickly and with as little bloodshed as possible.

[drphluid]

Fiokar_Dracolas, I hope these are not you last words on the matter.  The pride and joy of the free world is the ability to have and to share your opinion, even with those who would rather not hear it.

As to your question, where else indeed.  There are certain countries in the world where individuals are allowed (or at least not terribly discouraged) from having and sharing their opinions.

I was not trying to do anything more than to provoke thoughts with my words.  I am not at all interested in pushing my opinions on others; I only wanted to put it out there as well.  For what it is worth, I disagree with you and most what I interpreted as the opinion of the others.  Still I found myself agreeing with parts of what other people said.   For instance I agreed with Kassil in his statement about not liking to have someone tell him that he is living in sin or is going to hell.  I have no time for the condemnation of others who have made a decision not to live as I do.  Good for them, but I do not need to have anyone looking down on me for not sharing there opinion.  I even agree with your more resent statement about Bush being a figure head, although I disagree that it is as simple as the pro-war faction that he is a figure head for.  I even agree with your assessment that there is another way.  I believe there is always another way, however there come a time when you must pick one of those ways and undoubtedly it will be unpopular with some portion of society.

As an aside, perhaps my words were a little off-putting, since no one else has responded.  I guess I let myself get caught up in the heat of things.  I have been listening (as have many of you I am sure) to people going on and on about what should be done, what is the right thing to be done, how it all ought to be handled and it seems that no one admits they may not have the only answer to the problem.

Thanks to Strolen for allowing this non-rp thread to continue as long as it has.

[Kassil]

To be honest, the chief thing which rubs me the wrong way is the idea that they might try drafting me.

Drafting me to fight in a war I do not agree with the purpose of. While I'll admit that Saddam is a threat to the rest of the world, pursuing a war with only the US military forces and the somewhat uncertain support of Britain is stupid - particularly against the wishes of the UN. The entire core purpose of the UN is effectively demolished by these actions - that being to allow countries to peacefully handle these matters, without the bloodshed of civilians or soldiers.

And while I'm perfectly aware that the armed forces of the United States have been responsible for the US staying one of the best nations in the world to live in, there are quite a few things recently which disturb me.

For one - the entire Homeland Security issue. In effect, the government now has the right to arrest you for looking suspicious in their mind. No crime needs to be committed or threatened; you could be a shaggy-haired hippy and they could arrest you for it.
For two - I know quite a few people who are pagan in their beliefs. Bush has out said that Wicca, which was previously a recognized as a religion, is not a religion anymore. It's a cult, with none of the rights adhering to a recognized religion... Which means that it's perfectly legal to persecute those 'cultists' now.
For three - I'm sorry, but I must hold it against our president for making what I consider one of the most ill-worded, stupid, and tactless remarks I've ever heard, when he blamed the "increase" in school killings on the Net. This irritates me for two reasons: One, the school murder rate keeps going down. DOWN! Not up! It's merely a fit of the media having nothing else to splash around! And second - if the Net caused their 'heart to turn dark', then what of all of us who frequent this forum? The simple act of being on the Net puts us at risk of becoming Evil! What horror! Wait... I've been using the Net for a sizable potion of my life. I'm mad, yes, but not villainous. Neither are the countless other millions of people who play games and browse around the Net.

...I'll cheerfully admit to being opinionated, although I can't explain all the reasons behind my opinions. Suffice this: I don't like Dubya. I don't like the fact that the US is fighting something like three or four actual wars, despite only one being official and the others being 'peacekeeping' actions.
I particularly don't like that someone else, a man who will never go near the front lines, can pull a number out of a raffle roller and send me off to die for a war that I personally believe him an idiot for wanting in the first place. (I know it isn't that simple; still, the principle applies.)

[manfred]

Boy, too much to react too.

Saddam having allies? As far as I can see, it seems he has no allies, just people with their own agenda, that find the Iraq-theme useful. Almost pity him... almost.

War improving economy: nah, don't know much about this, and even if, I would prefer other improvements. Wars can be VERY costly, I hope this one won't be.

Now, to be true, as much as I dislike Bush, and as much as I loath war, and as much I fear for the international situation afterwards, and...

...let me state it clearly:

I understand the need and support the disarming of that country, and removing its leader, even with weapons and those horribly cold words of collateral damage.

I don't feel much pity for the war that is, I feel pity that this war simply HAD to be. Many have done their little bit to make this war unavoidable, yes, even USA and european countries, and others. What is done cannot be undone. Now let us just hope the war is over soon, with little losses on either side.

Just to put evidence of 'people-have-different-opinions', not everyone in Europe is anti-war either. There IS support even here, however small. It does not make me proud, merely sad.

I almost hate myself for being pro-war, for suffering of people. Then again, it's probably the evil Internet.

[Kassil]

This could've been over last time, if Dubya's daddy had followed through on the Gulf War. He didn't. I don't really expect Dubya to, either.

[Fiokar_Dracolas]

Why remove a perfectly good excuse to stir up patriotism?

I have no illusions that everyone within any one country is in complete support of war. It is virtually impossible to please everyone.
Manfred, I have a good understanding of your POV. My parents feel the same way. I think that there are alot of people who feel this way, whether or not they admit it is another issue.

I also think that's next to impossible to NOT be opinionated, regardless of a country's ideas about free speech (ie. it does/doesn't exist). People, if they like it or not, think. Thinking breeds opinions, and opinions breed differences. The handling of those differences is part of what makes us individuals.

Well. Not only have a made a liar of myself, I've started spouting  semi-related philosophy. Guess that's the way the cookie crumbles. Let's just try to keep the discussion light from here on in, huh?    

[CaptainPenguin]

I salute you, Drphluid, but I cannot agree with you. Just do one thing for me: If some Iraqi soldier is incapacitated on the ground, offer him a hand in getting up, not the but of your rifle. Then again, you may not be fighting.

Has anybody here heard of the French Revolution? Before that, the French had a thing set up called the Commitee of Public Safety. They were the ones responsible for all the chopping off of heads and the Reign of Terror, and all that shed monkey fur in a hand drum.If they even suspected that a Frenchman was talking ill of the revolution or even knew a noble, they could imprison and execute them. Now, doesn't our "Homeland Security" bunch seem to have power similar to the Commitee of Public Safety? And what's all this I hear about the FBI questioning emigrated Iraqis and Iraqi-Americans about terrorists and all that? What are we now? Why do we persecute them so?

[Strolen]

This thread will stay and am more then happy to support any educated  discussion regardless of where it meanders. Only time I will delete topics is if it gets too personal, vulgar, non-productive. Nobody here has any inclinations that direction so there are no problems. (I have deleted a couple double posts though   )

My opinion without responding to particular topics.

War. It was going to happen anyway. Inevitable. If you think this is a recent thing starting with the UN inspectors again just recently then you are sadly mistaken. Bush Sr. should have finished the job and we are all paying for it now. Saddam is Saddam and is pulling the same thing now as he did a decade ago. They have chem weapons, have used them, and who is to say they won't again. They have already showed they don't need an excuse to use them, they have their own twisted justifications and because of that it is too dangerous to allow them to continue to have the capability. Too many innocent lives in danger. Is oil a factor? How could it not be, common sense, the main reason, no, I don't think so.

I am fairly ignorant of many of the facts, but what I do know is that I trust the media about as far as I can throw them. The news disgusts me and I can rarely stand watching it except in small doses to get the latest *real* information as far as that goes. Try watching it for a little bit with your common sense in high gear and don't get emotional about it. Obviously there is new things that they report on, but most of it my sister could get a camera on her and make up, and that is all they are doing, making up news. Listen to it, really listen to it. Off that soapbox.

Anyway.
Do I think we need to be over there? Short answer, Yes. I have friends over there at the moment and they believe in what they are doing, they have to, I have to, there is too much at stake not to, personally and wordly.

I just don't know enough to argue any points with people. Being in Japan and only having the news at work doesn't broaden my perspective. I trust that Bush is doing what he feels is right for our country and the world. I trust that he has the best professionals giving him information that make his judgements sound. I trust and believe that we are doing the right thing.

[CaptainPenguin]

The media disgusts me too, Strolen. Bunch of thieves and liars who will do anything, anything to get a story.

[drphluid]

Whew, where to start?

Bush - Bush Clinton what's the difference.  The difference is who get the paycheck (which is both of them and for the rest of their life too).  What I mean is that who ever get voted into that office is not really throwing the personal opinion around.  They probably don't even remember what their personal opinions are.  If they were that kind of person (like most of us here at strolen.com) they would never have had the party backing to make it into the primaries.  So what does that say about the leaders of the US (or any nations with an elected leader)?  It says that the leader is pretty much pushing the party line.  In the US that means that Republicans are fairly conservative, are against abortion, are for "family Values" it means that Democrats are against "Big Business", are fairly liberal, are pro-choice, etc, etc. It just means that for about four to eight years we can expect one party to improve the nation one way and for the next four to eight years the other party can improve the nation the other way.  In other word it always amuses me to see people and who upset they get of one figure head or the other.  To me the are all the same, they are all for improving the nation.  The only difference is their methods.  What am I to do, I am practically a true neutral (see the other thread), a moderate.  In other words no matter who gets elected I am never very happy with their platform, even if a moderate got elected to an extremely high office (like the executive office) both parties would turn on them and refuse to work WITH them or let them pass anything decent (Else the current balance would be shot).  Is it hopeless?  No, it works, after a fashion.

Wicca - What can I say, if Bush doesn't like it, oh well.  He doesn't actually get to decide if he wants it to be a religion or recognized as a religion.  So the is no threat there, your Wicca friends are still protected under the "religion" umbrella.  Even the DoD recognizes Wicca as a religion.  If a military member request use of a military base chapel for a Wicca they have a legitimate claim to it (it starts to get complicated at this point so I do not know/care about the details but they have a legitimate claim to it).  For that matter a satanic group has the same rights as the rest of the 200+ other recognized religions.  The US military may be the fairest organization on Earth (not exactly fair but "fairest"). Religions may not be popular but they are acknowledged as legitimate.  And short of an executive order even the president can't change that.  I heard a rumor that during the last poll in Australia there were almost enough people  who listed their religion as "Jedi" to have it recognized as a religion (I have not researched this, I heard it word of mouth so I do not know if there is a shred of truth to this)

Homeland Security - Homeland Security is a good thing!  Can it be used inappropriately?  In a word yes.  Anything can be used inappropriately.  There are no laws that can not be used differently than they were intended.  We are responsible to insure that things do not get out of hand.  The media, for all the crap, would be all over any incident of inappropriate uses of the Homeland Security act.  The media is after all were we hear of the questionable act of questioning of people from the country that we are bombing.

Media - Need I say more?  We all know that they (at least in the US) are 85% full of crap, recycled crap at that.  Once and a while we will glimpse a truth that snuck by the editor unspun.  Yet if we look around at our friends, even the ones who agree about the full of crapness of the media, we will hear them spouting the same line of crap that were pulled from the headline that day.

Economy boosting war - To put it better, the spending involved with making war improves the economy (as does an deficit spending).  The actual act of killing people on foreign soil does not really help the economy any better then war on our soil does.

Evil Internet - Yep that and heavy medal/Rap/Polka will twist you until you are evil…

Boy it is hard to realize that not every one shares my opinion, or has to, but I thought I would show everyone the light anyway.

Do we ever truly get off the soap box?  If so this is were I will.