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Offline manfred

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TT: Orcs in disgrace
« on: February 17, 2003, 04:36:35 AM »
It took some time for me to gather the courage necessary to see The Two Towers, the movie.
It took some more time to write about it.

There were some things (alright: many things) I did not like, there were a few I sort of liked, there were some I accepted, for a movie being shorter than a book, and there were some I simply could not believe. We could could debate this for much longer than the movie itself took.

But there was something behind all the fancy special effects and way too much stunts, that troubled me. And after a moment it struck me: it's the Orcs.

Remember The Hobbit?
There were some Orcs. They lived in the mountains, and were generally a nuisance. They liked nobody, and nobody did like them. They caught some travellers, and had some fun, played court-and-justice before eating them.

Remember The Lord of the Rings?
There were some Orcs. They were servants of a dark power. They did not necessarily like it, but had no problem with killing and looting and making war upon the filthy Humans and Elves. OK, most of them liked it, they were evil, cannibals, would torture prisoners just for fun too. Yes, they were evil. There is only that one minor paragraph that speaks differently...
Quote
...But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d'you say? If we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.
Ah!
said Shagrat. Like in old times!

Sounds more like pirates liking freedom, and living off others. Perhaps not so Evil, who knows...

Seen the movie?
There were some Orcs. They are willing servants of a dark power. They are ugly, d**n ugly. They are born unnaturally, and are unnatural themselves. They kill and loot wherever they can. They seldom speak and mostly give off some grunts or screams. Besides being ugly they look pretty much the same. Despite some evil Men seen here and there, most of the time it
is only Orcs doing the war.

To explain finally what I am babbling about:
- In the books the Orcs are what they are, they live how they live, and smell like only Orcs could smell. And they are killed en-masse, but no wonder.
- In the movie, they are only there to be killed. They are monsters. They are Evil. They are ugly. I was slightly surprised why SO ugly, but then I understood why. They are so beastly there is no help but killing them, no one feeling the slightest bit of remorse. There are hordes of them, but just to make the heroes shine more. They are inhuman. They are enemies, and deserve only to die.


And I do not like it.


The books don't tell directly, but I personally feel there is a chance, that one day, in many years perhaps, there may come a time where Orcs could be viewed as good neighbours. Yea, they are evil and cruel and so-and-so. But, they have a few reasons of their own:
Their Masters above all, and you should not forget mutual hate with the other races. And perhaps seeing others having what they are denied: a peaceful life. In refference to the Ring was said, that even Sauron was not evil at first. Most things were not evil at first, and some may be yet saved, even if they are evil now.

I don't see a trace of this in that movie (ehm, all this being a deeply personal view of course). THEY (the Orcs) are just there to be killed.

I do not like it. Does anyone?
Do not correct me, I know I am wrong.

Offline CaptainPenguin

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TT: Orcs in disgrace
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2003, 12:38:54 PM »
Good point. I too noticed the shift from the books to the movie (From redeemable to insanely evil). The theory of redeemed orcs is a good one, and it gives me some interesting ideas
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Offline forgottengods

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good point
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2003, 07:57:46 PM »
ok the orcs in the movie look mor like goblins hehehe
and i dont like that
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Offline CaptainPenguin

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TT: Orcs in disgrace
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2003, 09:11:54 PM »
In Tolkien's books, orks and goblins were the same thing. Thats why they look like goblins
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Offline drphluid

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TT: Orcs in disgrace
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2003, 10:13:04 PM »
In the movie, the creatures that were born unnaturally were Uruk-Hai (Go here for a description http://www.lordoftherings.net/index_303_jo_shop.html), not just Orks.  In Tolkiens books Orks and Goblins are not the same thing, else there would be no way to mix them and make the Uruk-Hai.  The Uruk-Hai are unnatural hence their unnatural birthing process.  Now I will agree with you that their method of being born is not discussed (at least I can not remember) in the books, so the producers took a little creative license.

Orks are evil, they are made from the tortured bodies of the first-born (elves).  Morgoth (Sauron) captured and twisted some of the first-born to create a twisted version of elves.  There is no good in Orks.  Incidentally, Morgoth twisted a version of the ents to create trolls.

Oh yeah, don't forget to go here and give them your contempt for being stupid http://www.twotowersprotest.org/
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Offline manfred

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TT: Orcs in disgrace
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2003, 05:14:47 AM »
Yep, Orcs are somewhat unnatural, with the uruk-hai even more. It is not their creation, that is important to me (at this moment), it is the combination of all the things I have seen in the movie. Only a dead Orc is a good Orc, that's the final impression I get.
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Offline drphluid

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TT: Orcs in disgrace
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2003, 09:19:09 AM »
I am beginning to see the Benevolent Ruler in you Manfred.  It is good that someone is looking out for the redemption value in orcs and the like.

The humans and elves do not have a live and let live attitude, do they?

With that frame of mine one wonders how things will go once the orc menace is exterminated.  Will the humans and the elves eventually turn on each other?  Or, since, the elves are leaving middle earth and the humans are the dominant species, will the humans conquer the remaining races or just assimilate them.  Perhaps it is not a fictional story at all, but instead a history of our earth.  Maybe we killed off the orcs, chased off the elves, and bred out the hobbits and dwarves, which occasionally display their phenotype in modern day society.  

It makes you wonder…
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Offline CaptainPenguin

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TT: Orcs in disgrace
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2003, 04:40:23 PM »
Morgoth is not Sauron. He is a higher power that was destroyed.

You must admit, Ork-detractors, that many of the orks seem to be less than happy with serving Sauron. But you are right, they are unnatural.

I still think Goblins and Orks are the same thing, but then again, how would one then make an Uruk-Hai?
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Offline manfred

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TT: Orcs in disgrace
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2003, 05:36:55 AM »
once the orc menace is exterminated...

I do not dare to say how would those in-between moments look: between Sauron's defeat, and the extermination...

There's an ugly word for it, which I will not utter here.

Quote from: "drphluid"
Or, since, the elves are leaving middle earth and the humans are the dominant species, will the humans conquer the remaining races or just assimilate them.  Perhaps it is not a fictional story at all, but instead a history of our earth.  Maybe we killed off the orcs, chased off the elves, and bred out the hobbits and dwarves, which occasionally display their phenotype in modern day society.  

It makes you wonder…


Guess you have a new world-building idea! Not so nice though, for us Humans... :roll:
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Offline DaWergyling

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TT: Orcs in disgrace
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2003, 03:43:18 PM »
As far as Tolkien goes, Goblins are a weaker version of Orcs, and of course, Uruk-Hai are the elite breed. As for the Orcs in general, D&D was based on LOTR, along with many other fantasy-roleplaying game systems, but not so religiously, with still some hope left for orcs. Of course, without that said, they can be usually violent, or malicous in nature, but as for redemption, that depends.
In LOTR, no. They are your average cannon fodder A.
In homebrewed game systems, probably, although they do really serve as cannon fodder there also.
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Offline Strolen

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Booooo. Orcs.
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2003, 07:00:51 AM »
I may be the minority here (and I haven't actually seen TT yet...) but I think orcs are cannon fodder. Yes, there may be a few that have redeeming qualities or may see the evil of their way, but my understanding is they were created to serve evil, pretty much making them evil, pretty much making them cannon fodder. From what I remember of the book, that battle was a huge slaughterfest regardless of how you looked at it.

Up close, one on one, perhaps you can bring out a quality or two that isn't evil, but put them in an army marching on a city, they are fodder, as are the humans at that point, but we have a vested interest in that race. Overview though, each side is fodder until a winner comes out. If the winners were the orcs, the perhaps we would have seen more personal views from that side.

What great movie once said, "History is written by those who have hanged heroes."

And that may be the point of it. Look at war movies, bad guys usually equal fodder.

I have to keep telling myself that this is a movie. There is no way in hell that anybody can make a movie that does Tolkien perfectly. But so far I think they have done more then just done it justice. I am very pleased with it. (The extended LOTR movie is better).

Of course they have to change stuff and do things a certain way...because it is a movie. A book cannot turn easily into a movie. I won't condemn them for making orcs the bad guys. Can you imagine how much longer the movie would have to be if they wanted to show a couple good orcs or show more of their side of it. As it is they cut out enough other stuff that is good for the story so I will sacrifice any redeeming qualities of the orcs and make them fodder, especially since it would do nothing to enhance the actual story.

They readded it in the extended version, but I would be complaining about not having the gifts they were given when they left that second elven city (I am horrible with remembering names) Remember, the gift of light to be used in total darkness or whatever. That was totally dumped, and, uh, possibly some important foreshadowing? Not sure how they will work that, but it was a cool part of the book. And Bombadill or whatever, and the wraiths where they got their weapons, all cool parts, but don't help the story.

I vote down with the orcs. Kill them all. I don't want to know any of them except hearing them say, "Yes, my lord." or some other such nonsense. Looking forward to seeing TT and seeing if I stuck my foot in my mouth.

 :twisted:  :evil:

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Offline manfred

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TT: Orcs in disgrace
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2003, 07:08:21 AM »
Orcs not nice: no problem about it. Cannon fodder a useful thing too.

Would be good to see that movie, though. :twisted:
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Offline CaptainPenguin

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TT: Orcs in disgrace
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2003, 06:01:52 PM »
I see the point. Yes, orks are cannon fodder. Peace out, chill out!
But sometimes you can make exceptions. Heehee.
Go see the movie, Strolen. It's really cool.
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Offline Strolen

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TT: Orcs in disgrace
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2003, 06:16:45 PM »
:lol:  :shock:

Maybe I do need to chill out.

But orcs.....oooohhhhhhh  :twisted:  :evil:

They must bring up the bloodlust in me or something.

 :wink:

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Offline Kassil

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TT: Orcs in disgrace
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2003, 10:37:23 PM »
...From what I understood, Orcs originated in magic-twisted Elves, and Uruk-Hai from goblin-Orc hybrids.

This said - I find it implausible for even created races to be purely of a single bent. Some good eill emerge in any evil race; some evil in any good race. Provided you believe in such concepts, anyway.

...Me, I say the concepts are silly.
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Offline Ria Hawk

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TT: Orcs in disgrace
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2003, 10:40:37 PM »
Me, I really don't care.  Both the book and the movie kick all and major butt.  Hee.  Legolas.   :D
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Offline Kassil

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TT: Orcs in disgrace
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2003, 10:45:35 PM »
What is it about that elven bishounen that makes every lifeform which likes males giggle over him.

Hells, I'm half-tempted to kidnap him as a birthday gift for my girlfriend.
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Offline Ria Hawk

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TT: Orcs in disgrace
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2003, 11:08:02 PM »
I'm not sure.  But rest assured; my tastes are not limited to elves alone.  <goes into disturbing fangirl trance>  Anyway.  Yep.
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Offline Kassil

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TT: Orcs in disgrace
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2003, 11:09:10 PM »
I see.

So you swoon at bishounen in general, or are there other criteria?
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Offline Ria Hawk

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TT: Orcs in disgrace
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2003, 11:11:03 PM »
It really depends.  Usually, they're cool by anyone's standards.  But we're getting WAY off topic.  (But that's okay; it happens all the time.)
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Offline Kassil

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TT: Orcs in disgrace
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2003, 11:16:59 PM »
You think this is off-topic?

Try the PlanetADND forums sometime. It's one of the few places I've been where a topic that started like this can quite literally go diverging off into literally anything, athlough usually it has some ind of sexual innuendo at some point or another...
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Offline DaWergyling

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TT: Orcs in disgrace
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2003, 02:48:34 PM »
Kassil, that couldn't have been a more apt desciption on the hype over legolas.
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Offline drphluid

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TT: Orcs in disgrace
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2003, 04:28:23 PM »
Quote from: "CaptainPenguin"
Morgoth is not Sauron. He is a higher power that was destroyed.


I finally got into The Silmarllion enough and you are correct (and perhaps the only other person to have read The Silmarllion)

I misunderstood something in the beginning of the book that lead me to believe they were the same.
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Offline KingOfChaos

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TT: Orcs in disgrace
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2003, 04:09:25 AM »
Orcs were kinda bred to be evil by Sauron.  When he 'went away', they may have calmed down..became 'redeemable'..but when he starting stirring again, maybe his evil filled them..twisting them into horrific monsters of death and bloodlust :P

That's just my explanation..besides, I thought they looked cool and were a hell of a lot harder to kill than D&D orcs.
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Offline Kassil

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TT: Orcs in disgrace
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2003, 06:41:22 PM »
They were?

Maybe you're confusing the Uruk-Hai for the orcs.
"I grab the sword!"
"Mmkay, you're dead."
"What!?"
"You just grabbed the sword of the god you were just personally responsible for banishing from the world for the next ten thousand years. You just got zapped by around a billion volts of Angry Divine Power. You're dead."