llamaenterhear
Username: Password:

Author Topic: Virgin Planes  (Read 1747 times)

0 Members and 1 Lonely Barbarian are spying on this topic.

Offline Minsk

  • Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 17
    • Awards
Virgin Planes
« on: March 21, 2005, 09:43:34 AM »
Well, I've been a semi-lurker long enough on the forums, I suppose it's about time I contribute! Please give comments, criticism and ideas to expand my spark of innovativeness. The virgin planes detailed here can be used in any RPG world with planes, different dimensions or realities, etc. The basis here is on the D&D cosmology with its numerous planes, so I might also use some other D&D terminology in this post.

 Planes, to those who study the subject, are all the different realities that make up the multiverse. The Material Plane is where the mortals' world exists, and the other planes are the sources of the cosmos' elements and energies, and, indeed, the home of the gods.

 A virgin plane, also known as a newborn plane or growing plane, is a rare anomality in the multiverse. It's not known what spawns them, but cosmic turbulence or violent planar changes can cause a whole new plane to form. These planes, at first, are nondescript and blank, containing featureless land if, indeed, any land at all. If born from part of another plane, it might retain some features of its parent world.

 But a virgin plane is merely growing at that point. It is reactive to the extreme, but at first it does little except expand. However, when material or organisms from another plane enters, the plane registers its appearance and begins to shape to either become like the intruder or to suit its needs. For instance, if a fire elemental was thrown by a random vortice into a virgin plane and nothing else entered the plane, it would eventually possibly become a carbon copy of the Plane of Fire.

 I've only created various ideas for how the plane changes, and any other contributions would be welcome. Anyway, here are some:

 -When any foreign object or creature enters the plane, if that plane has a surface, it could start to mimic the entered object when it would come in contact with the surface. If merely a hint of salt was for some strange reason teleported into the plane, the plane could slowly turn into an exclusively salty world. Of course, the effects of living creatures could be very bizarre.

 -In a setting with magic, the plane reacts to magic used inside it, becoming like the magic used. The changes could be gradual and subtle or instantaneous. For example, a wizard casting a fireball might have to cast the spell multiple times before the sky would begin to take a red hue and the earth heave and rupture with growing heat. In another scenario, he might as well doom himself and any companions or enemies as the whole plane would explode in a violent supernova.

-The plane might react to a creature's needs, not its composition. A tired traveler might find the land turn soft and comfortable, easy to lay on and take a nap. A thirsty traveler could find water suddenly gushing out of the ground.

-The plane reacts to a creatures thoughts, wishes and wants. This is much like the scenario above. A person wishing for an apple might find a forest of apple trees sprouting around him (The Plane of Apples... I feel inspiration!), while someone recalling the bad case of flu he had would soon see the ground turn watery and pestilent around him.

 The coolest effects on a virgin plane could be achieved when two or more foreign objects enter the plane, when the plane changes to suit all of the entered things. Battles, especially, could be very exciting. Imagine a troop of archers battling a cabal of mages on a virgin plane. Around the archers, the ground could grow arrows like flowers while the mages could find the area around them leaking magical energy all around. In the center of this chaos, the effects could combine into anything as wild as the sky raining magic arrows to all visible magic used having a pointy shape.

 Eventually, as time passes, the virgin plane begins to stabilize and no longer changes. It might have become a full-fledged plane or merely a small demiplane, or it could have destroyed itself (imagine a person wishing death... bad move). From that point on, it is safe to travel to without the world changing wildly, though it could have turned into a very dangerous plane as time had passed.



 Alrighty, that's my wondrous idea! It might be fully possible that someone has thought of this before, in which case I bow down and state that great minds think alike. However, I'd really like feedback about this and more interesting ideas. DMs could use virgin planes as an especially strange world to have the PCs adventure in, or he could use it as a way to create new worlds for his cosmology. Either way, I hope my idea was not a total waste of time for you fellas! =)

Offline CaptainPenguin

  • Bastardo!
  • Squirrel Strolenati
  • Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 5869
  • Awards Questor Hall of Heroes 10
    • Awards
Virgin Planes
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2005, 11:20:21 AM »
Aah, planes, planes.
Definitely not one of my favorite aspects of the setting... But I'll roll with it.

So these virgin planes are baby planes, ones that haven't "learned" or "emprinted" what they are supposed to be yet. An interesting concept- planes become what they are based on the intervention of materials or beings in them. Perhaps this is how all planes are created- even the Material Plane started as a little virgin plane, "planted", if you will, by the gods, who then went down and thought up the world (gives a good, solid way that the gods created the world connected to reality).

Something that strikes me is this sentence:

Quote
In another scenario, he might as well doom himself and any companions or enemies as the whole plane would explode in a violent supernova.


Very interesting- if you really want to go the D&D power-game-ish direction, one could theoretically endanger the Material Plane with another coterminous plane going supernova. Perhaps this damages the Material physically (imagine the landscape of the Earth if a nuclear bomb went off underneath every part of it), or perhaps it is spiritually fractured- some areas are cut off from magic and the supernatural, while others are highly magical. Or, perhaps, the explosion of the other plane hurls pieces of the plane into the Material, transferring in strange and alien environments and elements which don't generally "mesh" with the Material.
Currently Reading: "Kafka On The Shore" by Haruki Murakami

Currently Listening To: "Piece Of Time" by Atheist

Offline Cheka Man

  • Strolenati
  • Grand Master
  • *
  • Posts: 689
  • Awards Society Guild Locations Guild Lifeforms Guild Item Guild NPC Guild Hall of Heroes 10
    • Awards
Virgin Planes
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2005, 11:40:20 AM »
I don't think much of planes but I like your ideas, Minsk.  :D

Offline Scrasamax

  • The Rogue Scholar
  • Emperor
  • ****
  • Posts: 3478
  • 20% Cooler
  • Awards 2013 Most Submissions 2012 Most Quest Submissions Hall of Heroes 10 Elite Systems Guild Gold Creator 10 Elite Questor
    • Scras' Blog
    • Awards
Virgin Planes
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2005, 05:04:25 PM »
Planes are interesting for a variety of reasons, unfortunately, these reasons are often overlooked for the more flashy-glitz. A trip to the Elemental Plane of Fire is certainly a nice way to dress up a scene with towers of shimmering bronze illuminated by eternal pits of glowing lava. It could also be more of exploration into the dynamic principle of fire, seeking out the weaknesses and apathies of the characters.

The key words I am looking for here are 'spirit realms'. This may sound like some cheesy mumbo-jumbo, but it is important. A realm exists for some reason, and a place to put fire isnt a good reason for a realm of perpetual flame. Other connotations and connections have to be made to make the new realms valid within a cosmology. It woulsnt hurt to look into some books on symbolism for the matter. It will help, and will certainly give new ideas.


Stout Lagerale of the Dwarven Guild
STR: 4 | END: 4 | CON: 4 | DEX: 2 | CHA: 2 | INT: 4

Tentacle Tentacle Sanity Schmanity

Offline Minsk

  • Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 17
    • Awards
Virgin Planes
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2005, 07:19:54 AM »
Thank you to Scrasa, Cheka and the Cap'n for all your comments und advice. I'm not totally surprised that the planes weren't a favorite of people, I've seen the reaction before. Meh, I like the planes as a source of some really random and odd places. While they don't need to be central to the game, they can be fun every once in a while to use in the campaign.

 Of course, if planes aren't one's cup of tea, then the virgin planes could just be a magical fluctuation in part of the world that makes it strangely reactive to influence. It'll be much more limited in size than a virgin plane, though.

 Scrasa made a valid point, that new parts of the cosmology just don't pop up like the virgin planes work. However, that's where demiplanes come in. :wink: Demiplanes are sorts of tiny pieces of reality that aren't big enough to be planes of their own but are alien enough to not be part of the Material Plane. Demiplanes don't have a great influence on the multiverse, but function like planes. If one were to use virgin planes in their setting, then there'd be a very high possibility that the virgin plane would never amass to anything but a demiplane.

 A quick note, I also noticed a funny conundrum in Captain Penguin's post. You claim you don't like planes much, yet you actually know what "coterminous" means?! That's almost a paradox! :D

Offline Scrasamax

  • The Rogue Scholar
  • Emperor
  • ****
  • Posts: 3478
  • 20% Cooler
  • Awards 2013 Most Submissions 2012 Most Quest Submissions Hall of Heroes 10 Elite Systems Guild Gold Creator 10 Elite Questor
    • Scras' Blog
    • Awards
Virgin Planes
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2005, 04:21:45 PM »
It doesnt seem very paradoxical to me. To state one's dislike of something without further knowledge of it is an act of ignorance. For example, I hate sushi.

Well, person who hates sushi, have you tried it?
No, it is gross.
How do you know it is gross then?


Now on the other hand, there is the informed and educated opinion.
Answer to the afore mentioned question...

Yes, I have tried it. The taste was not bad, but the texture of raw fish is unpleasent.

Besides, the Cap'n aint nobodies' fool!


Stout Lagerale of the Dwarven Guild
STR: 4 | END: 4 | CON: 4 | DEX: 2 | CHA: 2 | INT: 4

Tentacle Tentacle Sanity Schmanity

Offline Minsk

  • Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 17
    • Awards
Virgin Planes
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2005, 09:35:50 AM »
...I sorta meant the comment more as light humor, really. I thought the " :D " gave it away. If I would have been truly puzzled, I would have used :?: . Anyway, this is veering off-topic, so let's leave the sushi as it is: disgüsting.

Offline Scrasamax

  • The Rogue Scholar
  • Emperor
  • ****
  • Posts: 3478
  • 20% Cooler
  • Awards 2013 Most Submissions 2012 Most Quest Submissions Hall of Heroes 10 Elite Systems Guild Gold Creator 10 Elite Questor
    • Scras' Blog
    • Awards
Virgin Planes
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2005, 03:29:29 PM »
Anyway, the idea of virgin planes is interesting, but I wonder where does the material, or essence come from to produce the plane? It may seem to come from nowhere, but in my experience, all things need a source.

Theory A - The Chaos Theory
This relegates the stuff between the planes into primal chaos, or more appropriately, undifferentiated potential. The planes are insulated from the seething mass by their own membranes and barriers, but ultimately draw their existance from the chaos. This could ultimately be the source of nodes and ley lines, and the source of places of magical power. The chaotic energy could be drawn through the plane in a capillary action, gaining resonance as it seeped through the plane. The virgin plane would be spawned when a particularly promising loop of chaos folds inward on itself and creates a proto-membrane. It begins to hold essence and begins to define itself in terms of pattern, rather than chaos. The intervention of some divine entity could accelerate the process.

This theory brings up an interesting corollary. If realms can be born such, then realms must also have some way to 'die'. This would be as much a natural planar process as the birthing and sloughing of cells within a living organism. Perhaps after a certain amount of time, the membrane becomes too thick, non-porous. Chaos energy is no longer able to enter the plane, and magic begins to fade, the magical races start dying off. Eventually, the plane is eaten from the inside out by the force of entropy and the membrane dissipates into fragments. Some of these fragments might be required for the formation of new planes, in much the same way the the cast off remains of supernovae and novae are required for the formation of non-gasous planets.


Theory B - The Will Theory
Planes are artifical by necessity. They are all the product of design and planning by an external intelligence. Some might call this intelligence, or the demi-urge, God. The planes are created by the will of the demi-urge, and are populated with lesser fragments of the will to create, lesser gods. These lesser gods are given the task of creating the new plane. Ultimately, mortals are created, and it is in this, the smallest and weakest of the powers that the greater part of creation is left to.

Now this might seem odd at first, but allow me a moment to explain. The gods created the mountains, but until mortals find them, and explore them, they dont exist. Creation becomes cemented into reality as the mortal populace expands and explores, giving things names and purposes. If mortals are left out, the realms become the dramatic and awe inspiring abodes of the gods, which after the initial shock, are rather bland. Once the visitors is able to comprehend an entire great hall made of pillars of fire, it is pretty much a great hall, and there isnt much else.


Stout Lagerale of the Dwarven Guild
STR: 4 | END: 4 | CON: 4 | DEX: 2 | CHA: 2 | INT: 4

Tentacle Tentacle Sanity Schmanity

Offline Mourngrymn

  • Ruler of Hewdamia
  • Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 513
  • Awards Systems Guild Society Guild Locations Guild Questor Lifeforms Guild Item Guild
    • Awards
Virgin Planes
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2005, 08:49:15 AM »
If I remember correctly, my Planescape source books hint on how new planes are formed. They can be from matter drifting off from another plane that attract together by some unseen or unknown force, or can be a stray thought of a God. With the planes there really is no set rules on how they work, they work outside the rules of mortals.

My 2 cents.
Acolyte Ysuron the Undying Grymn – Necromancer Cult – Level 1
STR: 1 | END: 3 | CON: 4 | DEX: 2 | CHA: 6 | INT: 5
Authentic Semi-Retired Strolenite©®

Current completed guild quest.
Necromancer's Cult Quest - Acolyte
Current guild quest.
Necromancer's Cult Quest - Deathpriest
Hewdamia

Offline Scrasamax

  • The Rogue Scholar
  • Emperor
  • ****
  • Posts: 3478
  • 20% Cooler
  • Awards 2013 Most Submissions 2012 Most Quest Submissions Hall of Heroes 10 Elite Systems Guild Gold Creator 10 Elite Questor
    • Scras' Blog
    • Awards
Virgin Planes
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2005, 03:16:56 PM »
To be perfectly honest, I havent read any of the Planescape material, all of ym information comes from the White-Wolf cosmology, as well as basic reading and general fantasy. It also helps that I read alot of science and technology stuff, with a good dash of philosophy and symbolism. The patterns are there, the framework can be found if you know where to look.

It is the microcosm/macrocosm thing from english class.


Stout Lagerale of the Dwarven Guild
STR: 4 | END: 4 | CON: 4 | DEX: 2 | CHA: 2 | INT: 4

Tentacle Tentacle Sanity Schmanity

Offline Nobody

  • Strolenati
  • Master
  • *
  • Posts: 466
  • Awards Item Guild Questor Hall of Heroes 10
    • Awards
Virgin Planes
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2005, 04:46:33 PM »
Well thats all well and good, but lets be real, you can make up anything you want to. I mean, those books talk about a work of fiction. I see no reason why they should be they alpha and omega on planes.

In other words, come up with your own reason why a plane would be created. Don't get bullied into a theory that does not suit you (unless you want to be).

For instance, maybe these baby planes always existed, however nobody ever found a way to get to them. I mean, you cannot just walk into the fire realm. You have to walk through a gateway, or cast a spell, or have some kind of ability that takes you there.

But what if the spell was not yet discovered, and no gateway had been made. What if a virgin plane was simply a plane that had not been visited yet?

Come up with your own reasons.

As for the effects, well thats a whole new issue. I think that you should come up whith how a virgin plane reacts to certain stimuli. For example, an inanimate object might cause the whole plane to mimic those laws of nature, and variations of. For example, if a sword enters a virgin plane.

Well, it has mass, density, molecules, melting points. Its a stable material, but its made up of many different materials (the handle and the blade) and it has gravity (although a very small amount). Well this new plane might mimic those laws of nature without mimicking the sword. All variations of matter that fell within those laws of physics would suddenly shape into existance.

Or if an intelligent being entered, it might not take on a wish, but what that being was most comfortable with, or most used to. So a flame elemental would create another fire demension.

Or combine them. What if a material item creates the type, but the creature creates the structure. So a rock might create a rocky landscape, but then a tree would cause a softer soil and vegitation to form out of the rocks. Well right there you just created a rocktree. A rock that actually grows into a tree. And maybe a wizard enters. Well what is he comfortable with. People for starters. Now you have rock-tree-people. Who can cast magic. And a whole new society. And the wizard could create items from the magic that he has, and those things would incorperate themselves into that realm.

Just ideas.

-Nobody
"I am just a figment of my imagination" -"Loki", Illusionist Trickster