Author Topic: Gods and Spirits (Read 3465 times)

CaptainPenguin · « **on:** February 06, 2003, 08:29:17 PM »

What I want to do with my god system is convert most of the lesser important gods in to spirits (Like in the Shintoist sense)but it just doesn't seem to work. I also want to put in some of the Call of Cthulhu deities. I don't know where to put them in. Could somebody tell me how I can accomplish this?

manfred · « **Reply #1 on:** February 10, 2003, 05:04:38 AM »

Seems like no one replies, for it is a pretty hard question you ask!

Write something about the gods you have got already, and those you want to include.

How exactly do you imagine that spirits? Not much knowledgeable about Shintoism, except the fact it exists

Agar · « **Reply #2 on:** February 10, 2003, 01:45:23 PM »

I agree with manfred. Please give us some kind of summary of what gods you have, what shintoism is like, how you were thinking about applying it, what Cthuhlu esque dieties you wre pondering and so on.

Once we get a better picture, we'll be able to help.

forgottengods · « **Reply #3 on:** February 12, 2003, 02:02:46 PM »

what is shintoism ??

and the thing of cthulu gods maybe is a bad idea but i dont know anything about your world or realms? if you can give me more info i maybe can help you out with that

CaptainPenguin · « **Reply #4 on:** February 14, 2003, 01:58:12 PM »

These are my Gods:
Aniat, the Goddess of Light
Rau, the Lord of the Sun
Ben-Hanan, the God of Mercy and Healing
Vothanion, the Lord of Valor
Eldai, the Earth Mother, Goddess of Elves
Illusen, the Huntress
Hemalno, the Patron of Adventurers
Ordwun, the Dwarf-father
Selune, the Moon Dancer
Tyche, the Lady of Luck
Elhrim, the Tree Lord
Taular, the Skyfather
Kiros, the Lord of Illusion
Loku, the Trickster, the Goddess of the Storm
Tosh, the Trademaster
Vesperian, the King of the Caverns
Gels, the Lawful One
Danu, the Silent Queen, Goddess of Natural Death
Sappho, the Gem Goddess, the Bringer of Love
Malgh, the Forge Lord
Skadi, the Mountain Goddess
Thourd, the Ugly God, Lord of Honesty
Fenris, the Wolf Lord, Lord of Winter
Tethys, the Empress of the Ocean, Goddess of Water
Saphieth, the Lady of Murder, the Goddess of Darkness
Mote, the Lord of Starvation, God of Unnatural Death
Hashut, the Lord of Darkness, Master of Evil
Seerth, the Prince of Lies, Lord of Evil Thieves
Nergal, the Lord of Flames, Master of War
Chern, the Unclean, Lord of Sickness
Araushnee, the Spider Goddess, Lady of the Dark Elves
Otheur, the Lord of the Fish, the Fisher King
Oneiros, the Lord of Sleep and Dreams
Tamul, the Old Man of the Desert

Shintoism believes that in addition to 5 million gods, all things have spirits that govern nature and existence.
In my campaign, the spirits would be like lesser gods.

Strolen · « **Reply #5 on:** February 14, 2003, 06:17:14 PM »

I think the idea is very interesting and very doable. It might be a lot more fun with gods that aren't so much god-like and more accessible. With so many I would have to say their powers should be severly limited and severly restricted to the type of spirit/god they are. The powers should be very specific but should be strong enough to make them worth calling on. It is a hard line to balance on it seems.

Perhaps there are default powers that all the spirits have and then, depending on their area of godship, they have specific powers in relation to that.

With that many gods it would make sense that there would be A LOT more interaction with the common person as well as much more strife between the gods. It is almost a second world on the spirit plain that spills over into our world. Maybe even Final Fantasy movie-like stuff.

Actually sounds like a lot of fun to game in. Who knows when a god can pop up and demand or do something of the characters.

Not sure how your ideas on the subject are. I am just sort of dumping ideas that I get from reading what info there is.

CaptainPenguin · « **Reply #6 on:** February 14, 2003, 08:31:44 PM »

Hmmm....Gods dropping in, aye?
Perhaps...
The spirits would probably show up more than the gods, but I like the idea.

Strolen · « **Reply #7 on:** February 14, 2003, 08:34:31 PM »

I sort of dumped the idea of true super power gods in favor of having many smaller gods as the only gods. I fogot you had both when I was rambling. I like the idea of no super gods better

Agar · « **Reply #8 on:** February 15, 2003, 09:17:06 PM »

The cthulhu god or gods could be present in this divine society, but would likely represent a great threat to the other gods, as the 'normal' gods have quite limited or overlapping powers (ex. Aniat and Rau, goddess of light and lord of the sun) while the cthulhuesque gods would be more broad based and could even be consuming the powers of the other gods, a la Haagenatti.

This could lead to a war of the gods in the changing type of god, from personal and rather accesible to more mighty and terrifying gods. Rather than just good/ evil or law/chaos, the fight would be over a personal god or a powerful god.

CaptainPenguin · « **Reply #9 on:** February 16, 2003, 07:08:46 PM »

I originally conceived these ideas after thinking about the Dungeons and Dragons gods and how removed they were from the actual game world. It just doesn't let one give the world that mythological feel that I enjoy so much. The D and D sun god Pelor dwells on another plane. My sun god, Rau, dwells in the House of the Sun in the far east atop the worlds highest mountain chain. The D and D nature gods dwell on other planes. My nature gods dwell in nature. And so on.
By the way, what's Haagenatti?

manfred · « **Reply #10 on:** February 18, 2003, 05:20:42 AM »

As far as I can understand spirits, they are more closer to us than gods are. Gods are all-powerfull and distant. Gods can well live on other plane, spirits DO (partly) live here. Spirits are creatures that can be more easier to accept and understand. Spirits may be weak or powerful, helpful or mischievous, but if you know what spirit you deal with, you know what you can expect. Spirits can be approached, a true godly presence can kill you.

Spirits are deeply a part of the Nature. Few spirits live in cities. It is said every blade of grass has its own spirit, every tree, and every rock. While in most everyday situations you can ignore them, you should never insult a spirit, however small. Minor spirits are allied to bigger spirits, and thus even the weakest spirit's vengeance may be dangerous.

Trees have spirits and forests have spirits. Rocks have spirits, entire mountains (or even mountain ranges!) have spirits. They may ignore you, and they may not. But you should not ignore them, boy. And always honour the spirits of your ancestors, so they will help you and guide you.

Spirits do not show up, they are simply here. One may not notice them, for you are only a mortal.

Putting together some ordinary gods, the spirits, and some OTHER gods, creates an interesting triangle. Which one do you choose?

Being a follower of a god (gods), gives you power. It gives you ideals to follow, and usually a whole religion (in the hard-coded written sense). Still, you are a follower of something you do not completely understand.
Being a friend to the spirits gives you understanding of the Nature and your place in it. The spirits may help you with many things. Then again, they may not. It is not (much) dangerous to know spirits intimately.
Being a servant to that OTHER gods gives you much power. There come few responsibilities, to THEM or to living beings. But there also comes the inevitable madness, and your soul may be consumed, never to return to this world.

There it is. Remember that a triangle makes a relatively stable position, in geometry at least. Any world shaking event should be viewed from the standing point of all three sides.

Agar · « **Reply #11 on:** February 18, 2003, 02:38:38 PM »

Haggenatti is the demon prince of gluttony. He was a familiar that was much mistreated and swore to get his revenge by eating those that wronged him. One day, the demon prince of humor raised Haggenatti's status and he proceeded to make good his promise by eating the former demon prince of gluttony.

CaptainPenguin · « **Reply #12 on:** February 18, 2003, 06:58:19 PM »

Wow! Great ideas! By the way, a while ago I made a desert world reminiscent of Athas from the old Dark Sun campaigns, and these are the gods I made for it, if anyone wants to see them:

Ikhilmak: The Lord of Shade, Giver of Water, and Father of Life. Husband to Evertnoe.
Evertnoe: The Lady of Love, the Queen of Life, Mistress of the Twilight. Wife to Ikhilmak.
Ptolkhi: The Master of War and Flames, Creator of Conflicts. Father of Gugalmak by rape.
Gugalmak: The Lord of Evil, Master of the Cruel Sun, The Great Destroyer. Son of Ptolki and Evertnoe.
Yolmec: The Lord of the Air and Wind, The Bringer of Final Sleep of Death, Lord of the Night, He Who Escorts The Soul East.
Ukufut: The Protector of the Sacred Cenotes, The Father of Ukufutani.
Shaulokilmak: The Moon Dragon, The Mage-Queen.

Gugalmak is the sun during the day, the offspring of Ptolkhi, who raped Evertnoe in his lust. Ikhilmak and Evertnoe forgave Ptolkhi, but he takes it upon himself to destroy Gugalmak and chases him across the sky each day. When the sun turns red at the end of the day, it is because Ptolkhi has struck Gugalmak with his sword, bloodying him. People's dead souls are escorted to the east out of the desert and over the mountains by Yolmec, and so when the wind blows east, it is said to be the "soul wind" or "Yolmec's wind".

manfred · « **Reply #13 on:** February 19, 2003, 05:29:18 AM »

See a few possibilities:

Besides many, oh so many spirits of animals, plants, and things, and ancestors, some gods could be converted into major spirits:

Illusen, the Huntress - If hunters kill a deer, they contact the Deer's spirit, to excuse the kill. If they want the agility of the Wolf, they pray to its spirit. But if times are bad, and people need desperately food, the shaman speaks to Her, the master of all predatory animals. She rules them and decides the luck of a hunter.

Elhrim, the Tree Lord - A spirit lord, obviously.

Vesperian, the King of the Caverns - if the Caverns are somewhat united, then they have logically a single major spirit.

Skadi, the Mountain Goddess - obviously.
Tethys, the Empress of the Ocean, Goddess of Water - while rivers and seas have their own spirits, there could be one above all.

Otheur, the Lord of the Fish, the Fisher King - obviously.

Tamul, the Old Man of the Desert - perhaps a very old ancestor spirit, recognized by all nomadic tribes?

CaptainPenguin · « **Reply #14 on:** February 21, 2003, 06:13:09 PM »

I have another problem concerning the Big Evil God behind most fantasy settings.

In the Cthulhu Mythos, the grandfather of all them freaky beasts is a shuddering screaming mass of evil called Azathoth.

In my setting, the grandfather of all them evil things is a million mile long serpent-dragon named Helgryt.

Now, if I am going to have the Cthulhu deities, even as part of the triangle that you guys suggested, who would be the Big Evil God?

Azathoth or Helgryt?

or

Strolen · « **Reply #15 on:** February 21, 2003, 06:21:55 PM »

I am out of my league here. Million mile long serpents and shuddering screaming masses are a little beyond my conception of gods. Maybe I should get out more, but I like my gods to be more accessible to the world.

Maybe the screaming masses thing, but I think it would be hard to hold a conversation with if a character made a god call.

All my gods take the form of an eartherial(?) type and don't go beyond the comprehension of their followers. A million mile long serpent would have an interesting time visiting or being visited by a mortal.

I vote for the screaming masses and dump that huge dragon.

At least you can run from sreaming masses. Where would you run from that dragon, it already is everywhere.

CaptainPenguin · « **Reply #16 on:** February 21, 2003, 07:06:14 PM »

Well the point is that the Big Evil God is NOT accesible in any way!
I originally planned for the dragon to be locked away for all time, kind of a Satan forever in hell thing.
Of course, I could always go for both of them. Like, have Azathoth in another dimension or something...D'arr!

Ria Hawk · « **Reply #17 on:** February 21, 2003, 07:47:53 PM »

What if they're just alternate forms of the same god?

Strolen · « **Reply #18 on:** February 21, 2003, 07:53:29 PM »

Alternate forms is a good idea.

The dragon is locked up and the screaming masses is its manifestation outside its prison. His power is still able to reach beyond but in a limited form. After all, you can't fully lockup a god...or can you?

CaptainPenguin · « **Reply #19 on:** February 21, 2003, 11:02:34 PM »

Indeed!

Thank you!

Kassil · « **Reply #20 on:** February 24, 2003, 11:37:24 PM »

Azathoth wasn't evil, per se - it was the 'blind nuclear chaos at the center of the universe', if I recall correctly.

Have Azathoth and the Cthulhu gods be one side, and the regular evil gods be another. Two sides fighting an eternal war - with the rest of the gods, the mortals, and the spirits kind of caught between the two.

CaptainPenguin · « **Reply #21 on:** February 25, 2003, 09:14:37 PM »

I would classify Azathoth as evil just for clarity.

CaptainPenguin · « **Reply #22 on:** July 02, 2003, 04:37:47 PM »

Well, your suggestions have gone very well. The triangle thing worked perfectly.

Pacificat · « **Reply #23 on:** July 03, 2003, 01:16:24 PM »

I want to be a god, I want to be a god!

Anyways, I think this sounds like a great idea. I think there should be a traditional heiarchy (no spell check handy, sorry guys) for the gods. If they have been around that long, they definately know their place. Also, since they are aware of who they are and what they can do, they are always seeking more power without getting destroyed by the god/goddes whose toes they are stepping on.

After all, whats the point of being blessed as a god or spirit only to be a lesser god? Power will consume the gods and also continue the storyline on almost automatically with a struggle up above

Just a couple of pennies from the cat